Scouting 101: NFL Linebacker Rankings
by MattMiller on Aug 7, 2008 4:29 PM EDT
71 comments
It is fun to see other sites following our lead. Only three positions left in our Scouting 101 series. Here are the linebackers.
#:: Name:: Team:: '08 Salary:: Grade
1 Merriman, Shawne Chargers LB $2,643,620 (10)
2 Urlacher, Brian Bears LB $5,850,510 (10)
3 Willis, Patrick 49ers LB $4,081,000 (10)
4 Peterson, Julian Seahawks LB $7,300,000 (9)
5 Lewis, Ray Ravens LB $9,428,574 (9)
6 Tatupu, Lofa Seahawks LB $2,070,000 (9)
7 Ware, DeMarcus Cowboys LB $2,157,000 (9)
8 Thomas, Adalius Patriots LB $5,406,720 (8)
9 James, Bradie Cowboys LB $3,350,000 (8)
10 Ryans, DeMeco Texans LB $1,276,250 (8)
11 Briggs, Lance Bears LB $5,471,666 (8)
12 Hawk, A.J. Packers LB $4,827,970 (8)
13 Howard, Thomas Raiders LB $1,001,240 (8)
14 Beason, Jon Panthers LB $1,718,740 (8)
15 Morrison, Kirk Raiders LB $1,893,840 (8)
16 Dansby, Karlos Cardinals LB N/A (8)
17 Brooks, Derrick Buccaneers LB $3,750,000 (8)
18 Witherspoon, Will Rams LB $5,805,760 (8)
19 Scott, Bart Ravens LB $5,573,388 (8)
20 Suggs, Terrell Ravens LB Franchise Tag (8)
21 Phillips, Shaun Chargers LB $6,637,912 (8)
22 Johnson, Derrick Chiefs LB $2,216,240 (8)
23 Williams, D.J. Broncos LB $1,626,000 (8)
24 Jackson, D’Qwell Browns LB $1,105,000 (8)
25 Sims, Ernie Lions LB $2,605,000 (8)
26 Wimbley, Kamerion Browns LB N/A (8)
27 Vilma, Jonathan Saints LB $4,097,500 (8)
28 Bulluck, Keith Titans LB $7,864,908 (8)
29 Peterson, Mike Jaguars LB $4,933,335 (8)
30 Farrior, James Steelers LB $4,503,550 (8)
31 Pierce, Antonio Giants LB $5,300,000 (8)
32 Pace, Calvin Jets LB $2,833,333 (8)
33 Vrabel, Mike Patriots LB $4,192,720 (7)
34 Hill, Leroy Seahawks LB $1,068,250 (7)
35 Bruschi, Tedy Patriots LB $1,706,720 (7)
36 Barnett, Nick Packers LB $4,108,571 (7)
37 Crowder, Channing Dolphins LB $1,197,385 (7)
38 Henderson, E.J. Vikings LB $4,321,305 (7)
39 Porter, Joey Dolphins LB $7,400,000 (7)
40 Hayes, Gerald Cardinals LB $1,506,240 (7)
41 Foote, Larry Steelers LB $3,392,300 (7)
42 Brackett, Gary Colts LB $2,723,750 (7)
43 Greenwood, Morlon Texans LB $5,517,000 (7)
44 Mitchell, Kawika Bills LB $4,006,720 (7)
45 June, Cato Buccaneers LB $3,666,666 (7)
46 Thornton, David Titans LB $4,806,720 (7)
47 Fujita, Scott Saints LB $3,005,760 (7)
48 Chillar, Brandon Packers LB $3,256,250 (7)
49 Ayodele, Akin Cowboys LB $3,500,000 (7)
50 Harris, David Jets LB $1,121,240 (7)
51 Greenway, Chad Vikings LB $1,958,860 (7)
52 Brooking, Keith Falcons LB $7,942,226 (7)
53 Smith, Daryl Jaguars LB $3,691,667 (7)
54 McIntosh, Rocky Redskins LB $1,520,000 (7)
55 Boley, Michael Falcons LB $2,023,720 (7)
56 Washington, Marcus Redskins LB $6,445,416 (7)
57 Thomas, Zach Cowboys LB $1,250,000 (7)
58 Barton, Eric Jets LB $4,115,000 (7)
59 Tinoisamoa, Pisa Rams LB $4,005,760 (7)
60 Hobson, Victor Patriots LB $491,720 (7)
61 Ruud, Barrett Buccaneers LB $1,035,750 (7)
62 Shanle, Scott Saints LB $2,600,000 (7)
63 Davis, Thomas Panthers LB $2,196,250 (7)
64 Edwards, Donnie Chiefs LB $4,839,572 (7)
65 Jones, Dhani Bengals LB $1,866,666 (7)
66 Harrison, James Steelers LB $1,550,470 (7)
67 Fowler, Ryan Titans LB $2,506,720 (6)
68 Crowell, Angelo Bills LB $1,968,750 (6)
69 Cooper, Stephen Chargers LB $2,306,120 (6)
70 Peek, Antwan Browns LB $2,433,333 (6)
71 Posluszny, Paul Bills LB $873,720 (6)
72 Keiaho, Freddy Colts LB $551,000 (6)
73 Brooks, Ahmad Bengals LB $605,187 (6)
74 Wilkinson, Gerris Giants LB $595,195 (6)
75 Gaither, Omar Eagles LB $486,845 (6)
76 Tulloch, Stephen Titans LB $559,095 (6)
77 Johnson, Jarrett Ravens LB N/A (6)
78 Leber, Ben Vikings LB $3,600,000 (6)
79 Banta-Cain, Tully 49ers LB $3,266,666 (6)
80 Carpenter, Bobby Cowboys LB $1,755,000 (6)
81 Lawson, Manny 49ers LB $1,690,000 (6)
82 Ellis, Greg Cowboys LB N/A (6)
83 Harris, Napoleon Chiefs LB $3,700,000 (6)
84 Kiwanuka, Mathias Giants LB N/A (6)
85 Woodley, LaMarr Steelers LB N/A (6)
86 Poppinga, Brady Packers LB $1,028,750 (6)
87 Thomas, Bryan Jets LB N/A (6)
88 Simoneau, Mark Saints LB $1,246,666 (6)
89 Burnett, Kevin Cowboys LB $890,625 (6)
90 Timmons, Lawrence Steelers LB $1,755,470 (6)
91 Rivers, Keith Bengals LB Rookie (6)
92 Mayo, Jerod Patriots LB Rookie (6)
93 Fletcher, London Redskins LB $3,440,000 (6)
94 Anderson, Charlie Dolphins LB $1,833,333 (6)
95 Davis, Andra Browns LB $3,600,000 (6)
96 Torbor, Reggie Dolphins LB $2,100,000 (6)
97 Moore, Brandon 49ers LB $1,570,000 (6)
98 Bailey, Boss Broncos LB $1,565,000 (6)
99 Draft, Chris Rams LB $1,363,333 (6)
100 Chatham, Matt Jets LB $875,834 (6)
101 Williams, Leon Browns LB $564,220 (6)
102 Lofton, Curtis Falcons LB Rookie (6)
103 McGinest, Willie Browns LB $3,666,668 (6)
104 Johnson, Landon Panthers LB $1,705,000 (6)
105 Williams, Demorrio Chiefs LB $1,606,240 (6)
106 Haggans, Clark Cardinals LB $1,355,760 (6)
107 Nece, Ryan Buccaneers LB $1,160,000 (6)
108 Greisen, Nick Ravens LB $989,573 (6)
109 Lewis, DD Seahawks LB $485,000 (6)
110 Gocong, Chris Eagles LB N/A (6)
111 Polk, Carlos Chargers LB $736,120 (6)
112 Lewis, Alex Lions LB $1,456,720 (6)
113 Thomas, Robert Raiders LB $2,006,240 (6)
114 Lenon, Paris Lions LB $1,800,000 (6)
115 Diggs, Na’il Panthers LB $1,400,000 (6)
116 Bradley, Stewart Eagles LB $541,720 (5)
117 Hillenmeyer, Hunter Bears LB $1,500,000 (5)
118 Ingram, Clint Jaguars LB $623,750 (5)
119 Barnes, Antwan Ravens LB $472,386 (5)
120 Blackburn, Chase Giants LB $674,320 (5)
121 Connor, Dan Panthers LB Rookie (5)
122 Clark, Danny Giants LB $1,500,000 (5)
123 Dizon, Jordon Lions LB Rookie (5)
124 Hagler, Tyjuan Colts LB $1,417,000 (5)
125 Kassell, Brad Jets LB $770,000 (5)
126 Ulbrich, Jeff 49ers LB $2,281,000 (5)
127 Crable, Shawn Patriots LB Rookie (5)
128 Clemons, Chris Eagles LB $1,500,000 (5)
129 Durant, Justin Jaguars LB $695,500 (5)
130 Wilhelm, Matt Chargers LB $3,656,120 (5)
131 Smith, Derek Chargers LB $1,256,120 (5)
132 Bentley, Kevin Texans LB $1,250,000 (5)
133 Webster, Nate Broncos LB $1,030,000 (5)
134 Williams, Sam Raiders LB $875,000 (5)
135 Joe, Leon Buccaneers LB $485,000 (5)
136 Koutouvides, Niko Broncos LB $1,278,146 (5)
137 Thomas, Dontarrious 49ers LB $866,720 (5)
138 Stills, Gary Ravens LB $836,720 (5)
139 Winborn, Jamie Broncos LB $1,750,000 (5)
140 Brayton, Tyler Panthers LB $1,525,000 (5)
141 Lehman, Teddy Buccaneers LB $1,250,000 (5)
142 Black, Quincy Buccaneers LB $576,250 (5)
143 Ayanbadejo, Brendon Ravens LB $1,096,720 (4)
144 Beisel, Monty Cardinals LB $906,240 (4)
145 Morgan, Dan Saints LB $780,000 (4)
146 Fox, Keyaron Steelers LB $491,720 (4)
147 Siler, Brandon Chargers LB $386,801 (4)
148 Gardner, Gilbert Lions LB $485,000 (4)
149 Hodge, Abdul Packers LB $647,000 (4)
150 DeOssie, Zak Giants LB $484,945 (4)
151 Pettway, Kenneth Jaguars LB $520,000 (4)
152 Jordan, Akeem Eagles LB $1,476,720 (4)
153 Thompson, Chaun Texans LB $1,025,000 (4)
154 Adibi, Xavier Texans LB Rookie (4)
155 Campbell, Khary Redskins LB $861,720 (4)
156 Izzo, Larry Patriots LB $491,720 (4)
157 Diles, Zach Texans LB $384,228 (4)
158 Slaughter, T.J. Patriots LB $451,720 (4)
159 Waters, Anthony Chargers LB $525,620 (4)
160 Cash, Antoine Buccaneers LB $525,000 (4)
161 Manning, Roy Bengals LB $520,000 (4)
162 Chukwurah, Patrick Buccaneers LB $760,064 (4)
163 Boiman, Rocky Eagles LB $771,720 (4)
164 Bell, Beau Browns LB Rookie (4)
165 Anderson, James Panthers LB $613,640 (4)
166 McMillan, David Browns LB $573,720 (4)
167 Frazier, Andre Steelers LB $566,720 (4)
168 Williams, Jamar Bears LB $555,470 (4)
169 Wheeler, Philip Colts LB Rookie (4)
170 Avril, Cliff Lions LB Rookie (4)
171 Ruud, Bo Patriots LB Rookie (4)
172 Spencer, Cody Jets LB $750,000 (4)
173 Babin, Jason Seahawks LB $963,723 (4)
174 Gooden, Tavares Ravens LB Rookie (4)
175 Nicholas, Stephen Falcons LB $493,595 (4)
176 McClover, Darrell Bears LB $564,220 (4)
177 McCoy, Matt Buccaneers LB $620,000 (4)
178 Ciurciu, Vinny Vikings LB $817,500 (4)
179 Smith, Bryan Eagles LB Rookie (4)
180 Pope, Derrick Vikings LB $485,000 (4)
181 Kyle, Jason Panthers LB $916,240 (4)
182 Farwell, Heath Vikings LB $1,423,360 (4)
183 Harris, Marques Chargers LB $1,423,120 (4)
184 Stamer, Josh Titans LB $698,740 (4)
185 Okwo, Michael Bears LB $531,095 (4)
186 Woods, Pierre Patriots LB $451,720 (3)
187 Howard, Marcus Colts LB Rookie (3)
188 Blackstock, Darryl Bengals LB $520,000 (3)
189 Ellison, Keith Bills LB $478,470 (3)
190 Blades, ‘H.B.’ Redskins LB $403,345 (3)
191 Davis, ‘Buster’ Lions LB $301,720 (3)
192 Sartz, Dallas Vikings LB $301,360 (3)
193 Applewhite, Antwan Chargers LB $301,120 (3)
194 Hayes, Geno Buccaneers LB Rookie (3)
195 Everett, Earl Falcons LB $301,720 (3)
196 Curry, Donte Panthers LB $795,000 (3)
197 Session, Clint Colts LB $462,500 (3)
198 Schlegel, Anthony Bengals LB $445,000 (3)
199 Iwuh, Brian Jaguars LB $445,000 (3)
200 Jeanty, Rashad Bengals LB $445,000 (3)
201 Shaw, Tim Panthers LB $415,965 (3)
202 Herring, Will Seahawks LB $410,775 (3)
203 Prescott, Burgess Ravens LB $395,636 (3)
204 Taylor, Tony Falcons LB $379,720 (3)
205 Gilbert, Tony Jaguars LB $610,000 (3)
206 Goff, Jonathan Giants LB Rookie (3)
207 Keglar, Stanford Titans LB Rookie (3)
208 Alston, Jon Raiders LB $451,240 (3)
209 Alexander, Rufus Vikings LB $329,547 (3)
210 Trucks, Anthony Steelers LB $301,720 (3)
211 Biermann, Kory Falcons LB Rookie (3)
212 Vaughn, Cameron Falcons LB $301,720 (3)
213 Griffin, Kris Browns LB $933,720 (3)
214 Amato, Kenneth Titans LB $929,222 (3)
215 Snow, Justin Colts LB $790,000 (3)
216 Johnson, Brandon Bengals LB $445,000 (3)
217 Cain, Jeremy Titans LB $526,720 (3)
218 Dobbins, Tim Chargers LB $493,120 (3)
219 Taylor, Hilee Panthers LB Rookie (3)
220 Evans, Troy Saints LB $665,000 (3)
221 Thomas, Patrick Chiefs LB $451,240 (3)
222 Sinclair, Matt Redskins LB $376,720 (3)
223 White, Tracy Packers LB $860,000 (3)
224 Green, Louis Broncos LB $956,480 (3)
225 Schneck, Mike Falcons LB $736,720 (3)
226 Williams, Thomas Jaguars LB Rookie (3)
227 Maxwell, Jim Bengals LB $605,000 (3)
228 Smith, Mike Ravens LB $526,720 (3)
229 Fincher, Alfred Lions LB $520,000 (3)
230 Kehl, Bryan Giants LB Rookie (3)
231 Roach, Nick Bears LB $376,720 (3)
232 DiGiorgio, John Bills LB $455,054 (2)
233 Wallace, Rian Redskins LB $451,720 (2)
234 Orr, Shantee Browns LB $445,000 (2)
235 Grant, Larry 49ers LB Rookie (2)
236 Beck, Jordan Broncos LB $451,480 (2)
237 McCune, Robert Ravens LB $451,720 (2)
238 Mays, Corey Bengals LB $445,000 (2)
239 Nande, Terna Chargers LB $376,120 (2)
240 McGarigle, Tim Rams LB $375,760 (2)
241 Cordova, Jorge Titans LB $451,720 (2)
242 Miles, Edmond Dolphins LB $376,760 (2)
243 Archer, Brandon Broncos LB $376,480 (2)
244 Kershaw, William Broncos LB $376,480 (2)
245 Bowen, Alvin Bills LB Rookie (2)
246 Keglar, Stanford Titans LB $295,000 (2)
247 Studebaker, Andy Eagles LB Rookie (2)
248 Humpal, Mike Steelers LB Rookie (2)
249 LaRocque, Joey Bears LB Rookie (2)
250 James, Robert Falcons LB Rookie (2)
251 Larsen, Spencer Broncos LB Rookie (2)
252 Mays, Joe Eagles LB Rookie (2)
253 Vobora, David Rams LB Rookie (2)
254 Darche, J.P. Chiefs LB $805,000 (2)
255 Brown, Ricky Raiders LB $451,240 (2)
256 Havner, Spencer Packers LB $301,240 (2)
257 Abbate, Jon Texans LB $295,000 (2)
258 Daniels, Torrance Giants LB $449,320 (2)
259 Harris, Nate Chiefs LB $376,240 (2)
260 Hayward, Adam Buccaneers LB $395,500 (2)
261 Mackey, Jerry Jets LB $301,240 (2)
262 Cannon, Anthony Lions LB $460,954 (2)
263 Wilson, Rodriques Bears LB $451,720 (2)
264 Condo, Jon Raiders LB $451,240 (2)
265 O’Neil, Keith Giants LB $449,320 (2)
266 Nkang, Chad Jaguars LB $379,062 (2)
267 Campbell, Kurt Titans LB $301,720 (2)
268 Pimentel, Mickey Chiefs LB $301,240 (2)
269 Church, Marcello Dolphins LB $300,760 (2)
270 Keasey, Zak 49ers LB $450,520 (1)
271 Mitchell, Marvin Saints LB $375,760 (1)
272 Haley, Dennis 49ers LB $451,000 (1)
273 Smith, Tyson Cowboys LB $370,000 (1)
274 Muncy, Matt Titans LB $301,720 (1)
275 Williams, Travis Falcons LB $376,720 (1)
276 Holloway, David Cardinals LB $301,240 (1)
277 Johnson, Rory Giants LB $299,320 (1)
278 Jerrell Johnson Titans LB $297,500 (1)
279 Laury, Lance Seahawks LB $445,000 (1)
280 Washington, Mark Dolphins LB $375,760 (1)
281 Costanzo, Blake Bills LB $375,760 (1)
282 Culberson, Quinton Rams LB $375,760 (1)
283 Smith, Kelvin Dolphins LB $375,760 (1)
284 Guzman, Ramon Colts LB $371,666 (1)
285 Coley, Kevis Texans LB $295,000 (1)
286 Shotwell, Kyle Colts LB $295,000 (1)
287 Jamison, Brandon Panthers LB $451,240 (1)
288 Togafau, Pago Eagles LB $376,720 (1)
289 Rogers, Justin Cowboys LB $376,720 (1)
290 Allred, Colin Titans LB $376,720 (1)
291 Herron, David Vikings LB $376,360 (1)
292 Baldwin, Johnny Chiefs LB $376,240 (1)
293 Trusnik, Jason Jets LB $376,240 (1)
294 Tucker, Jyles Chargers LB $376,120 (1)
295 Worsley, Victor Colts LB $370,000 (1)
296 George, Tearrius Cowboys LB $295,000 (1)
297 Wheeler, Danny Redskins LB $295,000 (1)
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Interesting that
3 former Colts OLBs (June, Thornton, Washington) are ranked above the Colts current starters, but the D had it’s best season last year.
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
(Yes, that is a non-Lil Wayne lyric sig).
by shake n bake on Aug 7, 2008 5:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well
A defense’s success isn’t based on one unit or player. Bob Sanders also played in more games in 2007 than during any other season. There is also much more talent and stability at defensive tackle.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 7, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If money wasn't an issue
I would take Thornton or Washington over Hagler right now, or take June and replace Hagler with Keiaho.
I like Thornton and Washington, but I’m a bit more conflicted on June. Awesome cover LB, but he needs help in front and behind in the run game.
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
(Yes, that is a non-Lil Wayne lyric sig).
by shake n bake on Aug 7, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So...
What was the point of saying the defense is better without them? Do you feel Thornton, Washington and June are less talented than Hagler, Keiaho and Brackett?
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 7, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was more about
them being able to replace quality LBs than criticizing the rankings. I guess I do that too much.
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
(Yes, that is a non-Lil Wayne lyric sig).
by shake n bake on Aug 7, 2008 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Homer...
:)
It is a testament to their ability to draft well and find good free agents.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 7, 2008 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Long list
you missed Jarret Johnson for the Ravens. He’s not a great linebacker, but he’s a dependable starter. Probably earns a 6 rating on your scale.
I would have been suprised if you didn’t miss somebody though.
I’m surprised to see Angelo Crowell so low, he’s been pretty darn good in the Bill’s games I watched, and he had a very good season as I recall.
by math_geek on Aug 7, 2008 5:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks...
NFL.com and I are not friends anymore over this and many other omissions.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 7, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's incredible that nfl.com
misses a player who started 16 games at OLB last season. Who does the databasing over there?
by math_geek on Aug 7, 2008 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunno
I’ve applied though! haha
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 7, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Lofa Tatupu should be a ten.
Patrick Willis is overrated. I know he is good but on bad teams, the linebackers get more tackles because no one else can get.
Last thing, Hill should be an 8 not a 7. The Seahawks defense isn’t nearly as good when Hill is of the field
by xSAMx on Aug 7, 2008 7:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Objective...
Willis as overrated? That’s the first time I’ve seen that, and not surprisingly from a Seahawks fan.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 7, 2008 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about these guys
Hey Matt,
I’m not trying to give you a hard time because I know you get the players from nfl.com, but I was wondering what grade you would give these LB (I can’t find them so forgive me if I’m just missing them):
Dansby (Ari)
Johnson (Bal)
Wimbley (Cle)
Ellis (Dal)
Kiwanuka (NYG)
Thomas (NYJ)
Gocong (Phi)
Thanks. I always look forward to these rankings.
by drnic on Aug 7, 2008 9:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good lord
Let me add these in and reply. Thank you for noticing this.
I do believe Kiwi was ranked at DE, but I’ll rank him as an OLB here.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 7, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
Updated. Thanks again.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 7, 2008 9:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I appreciate the quick response. It is hard to believe that nfl.com would miss such good players (#16 and #26 on your list). Really like your rankings.
by drnic on Aug 7, 2008 10:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I notice a disproportionate number of them seem to be 3-4 OLB
Johnson, Wimbley, Ellis, Thomas, and I think Dansby too.
It’s not a major oversight to have Kiwi as a DE, as he does play that position.
That leaves Gocong as the only 4-3 OLB that they missed.
by math_geek on Aug 8, 2008 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ware below Tatupu?
He’s arguably the best pass-rushing linebacker in the league while also being stellar against the run and better than average against the pass. How is he not in the top 5 while Shawne Merriman heads the list?
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Stuff-You-Need-Brett-Favre-action-figure-bench?urn=nfl,93739
by BudLight on Aug 8, 2008 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ware vs Merriman
I tried to be as objective as possible when ranking these guys, and I think I’ve said before that while I am a 49ers fan, I really have no allegiances.
My feeling is that Merriman is more dominant than Ware as a pass rusher. Ware does a lot of things well (pass rusher, run stopper, coverage), but Merriman is dominating. He was arguably the best defender in the NFL the past two seasons.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 8, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best pass rusher, fine.
But advanced metrics show that he’s inadequate against the run. To be the top-ranked player at your position, don’t you need some versatility? Otherwise, we’d have been calling Dennis Rodman the best forward in the NBA during his era because of unquestioned dominance as a rebounder (and defender).
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Stuff-You-Need-Brett-Favre-action-figure-bench?urn=nfl,93739
by BudLight on Aug 8, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apples and oranges
Using a basketball reference to make a football point is a huge stretch. Would you call the pitcher with the most strikeouts the best pitcher? Or the hitter with the most home runs the best hitter? That’s not accurate, nor does it make any sense to do when talking football.
Advanced metrics may show things, but to steal from baseball, the A’s haven’t won a World Series using them. Numbers, especially in scouting, cannot tell us the entire story. There is a reason the Football Outsiders are a website and not working for the NFL. I do think numbers hold their place in tracking and charting what offenses and defenses do, but to say you can determine how valuable, talented or worthy a player is by an advanced metric would un-do 100 years of scouting and also leave many gaps in the game. Why not just use a QBs completion % and YPA to draft them?
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 8, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A’s may not have won a world series, but they are still way better than most teams in baseball. I can only wish my Orioles had it so good.
Numbers are not the be-all end-all of everything, and they are not as valuable in football as they are in baseball, but they can tell us a lot of things that our eyes miss, and lead to interesting new theories (like going for it on 4th and 1) that may be able to make for better coaching and/or team.
But, that being said. 3-4 ROLB are not exactly supposed to be run-stoppers. They are pass rushers first and foremost, so it’s not really a surprise that the best pass-rusher is the best 3-4 ROLB.
by math_geek on Aug 8, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here, here
I agree that numbers are interesting in situations like 4th and 1, and even two-point conversions.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 8, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are not suppose to be run stoppers?
Are you kidding me? Stopping the run is half the game. Stopping the run is very important. OLB in a 3-4 are most definitely suppose to be good against the run. That is just a ridiculous statement. I mean that is why Spencer is going to be the starter by the end of the year for the Cowboys instead of Ellis according to all the reports, eventhough Ellis is better against the pass.
by quincyyyyy on Aug 9, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
Can you post your game experience and games seen other than the Cowboys in the past 5 years? Not every team runs the 3-4 that Dallas and New England do. Baltimore and San Diego prefer pass rushers at both OLB position, as does San Francisco and will Arizona and Pittsburgh.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 9, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you serious who the heck do you think runs our defense
In case you didn’t know its Wade Phillips. We run the exact same style of defense that he implemented in San Diego when he was the defensive coordinator there, when Merriman had his best season. (before he “stopped” juicing)
by quincyyyyy on Aug 9, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said 3-4 ROLB
Ellis and Spencer would be playing LOLB, as Ware is your ROLB. It’s a different position. Our LOLB is Jarret Johnson and he plays the run too. In a 3-4 the difference between LOLB and ROLB is bigger than the difference between LDE and RDE in a 4-3.
This is not difficult. The 3-4 ROLB is your best pass-rusher. Stopping the pass is considerably more important than stopping the run. Therefore, it stands to reason, that playing well against the pass counts for far more in evaluating 3-4 ROLB than playing well against the run.
by math_geek on Aug 10, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is beyond ridiculous
You are telling me that offenses don’t run to the left side?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You have to be a good run stopper if you are an OLBer, regardless if you are a ROLB or LOLB. Being good against the run is essential for an linebacker. Saying that ROLB don’t have to be good against the run is an absurd statement. This is not difficult.
by quincyyyyy on Aug 10, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Technically...
It’s weak vs strong side, and most teams in the NFL always run strong. It’s a poorly hidden secret.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 10, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know I should have said weak vs strong
I just get messed up from LT/RT and Madden
by math_geek on Aug 10, 2008 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh not when it comes to Parcells
Ware never got moved around under him, so Ware would be playing the strong side at times. God I’m glad that guy is gone.
by quincyyyyy on Aug 10, 2008 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
role of stats
The Red Sox tried to hire Billy Beane and did hire Bill James and they’ve had some success recently.
You can actually do pretty well if you use just completion percentage and games started for QBs that scouts think are good enough to be a 1st or 2nd round pick. Statistics are great for correcting for biases. They won’t replace the context and the whys/hows you get from watching the game/tape.
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
(Yes, that is a non-Lil Wayne lyric sig).
by shake n bake on Aug 8, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two words on completion % and games started
Kliff Kingsbury
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 8, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a perfect metric
But neither is a process that endorses players like Ryan Leaf.
Pretty clearly the first time he has ever looked at a web site. "And there are readers' comments at the bottom! And advertisements for products! And best of all, I won a free iPod!"
-Ken Tremendous on Mike Downey.
by BudLight on Aug 8, 2008 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOVE IT!
Not sure what I like best, the Red Sox as the counter-example to the A’s (hat tip to shake n’ bake) or Ryan Leaf as the other side of the coin for Kingsbury! Stats and scouting go hand in hand and are not in opposition. To ignore either is to be at least half wrong.
Here we go again: http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/
by ejruiz on Aug 8, 2008 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously, that's the truth
But back to the original crux of the arguement… Ware, even moreso then Merriman, has raving reviews from experts far and wide extolling him as a singular player, the best defensive player in the NFC, and the fastest front-seven player in football (to name the most glowing) in addition to his statistical dominance.
Pretty clearly the first time he has ever looked at a web site. "And there are readers' comments at the bottom! And advertisements for products! And best of all, I won a free iPod!"
-Ken Tremendous on Mike Downey.
by BudLight on Aug 8, 2008 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this comment would be a lot better with links to quotes from said experts far and wide
and preferably those experts should be supporting a team other than the Cowboys.
Rex Ryan is a defensive football expert and he thinks Terrell Suggs is the best 3-4 outside linebacker in the league.
by math_geek on Aug 8, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not the near best but he might be the fastest DL/3-4 OLB
he’s insanely fast and has me really excited about him as a situational guy this year, Marcus Howard. The word out of camp is he’s faster than Freeney (Freeney is 40lbs heavier though).
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
(Yes, that is a non-Lil Wayne lyric sig).
by shake n bake on Aug 9, 2008 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Links/Quotes
Agree, would love to see quotes calling Ware the best in the NFC.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 9, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Football Prospectus '08
Pretty clearly the first time he has ever looked at a web site. "And there are readers' comments at the bottom! And advertisements for products! And best of all, I won a free iPod!"
-Ken Tremendous on Mike Downey.
by BudLight on Aug 10, 2008 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Klingsbury is actually used in the description of why the statistics matter
The second implication is, perhaps, more interesting. The correlation of a high number of games started with greater NFL success indicates that the more games played in college, the better the job scouts do at evaluating players. While this is not always the case — Cade McNown is the most prominent exception — it is a clear trend. It makes sense that the more film available on a player, the better that scouts known his talent level. There are quarterbacks who started a lot of college games and posted good numbers, but scouts saw enough of them to know they lacked NFL talent. Chris Rix, who started 38 games for Florida State, in a good example; scouts saw him play a lot in college and knew he wasn’t very good; consequently he went undrafted. Imagine instead if Rix had come out after leading Florida State to a 10-3 record in his junior year. With only two seasons as a starter at the college level, scouts might have seen him as “projectable,” a proven winner with athleticism and a strong arm. Kliff Kingsbury is another example; he was a wildly successful four-year starter in Texas Tech’s spread offense, but scouts saw enough of him to know he was a sixth-round project instead of a first-round prospect…
From Football prospectus.
Kingsbury of course, is also a spread offense QB, which means that it’s a major transition to the bigs. The entire reason GS is so valuable as a metric is that scouts are much better at evaluating players they have more tape of. If a guy starts 4 years in a row, scouts will know an awful lot about him, whereas 2 seasons isn’t necessarily enough time to evaluate a player.
by math_geek on Aug 8, 2008 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why FO only uses the Lewin (completion% and starts) projections
on 1st and 2nd round picks. It uses the expertise of scouts by letting them sort out the Kingsburies, while it corrects for their biases to also exclude the Bollers (career college completion % under 50)
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
(Yes, that is a non-Lil Wayne lyric sig).
by shake n bake on Aug 9, 2008 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'd been trying not to mention Boller
it’s a sore subject. ;-)
by math_geek on Aug 9, 2008 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most obvious example I could think of
He wasn’t the biggest bust, but he was the bust with a very low college completion %, who, big surprise, had trouble completing passes at the NFL level.
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
(Yes, that is a non-Lil Wayne lyric sig).
by shake n bake on Aug 9, 2008 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Merriman a linebacker????
BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I thought he was just a DE who liked to stand up. Now explain to me how he grades 10 and Ware a 9. When Ware is excellent against the run AND in coverage, and Merriman can’t cover to save his life. Merriman basically rushes the qb on every passing play. If Ware did that he would have had even more sacks than Merriman last year.
by quincyyyyy on Aug 9, 2008 3:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Little late
We have 12 comments on this. Get in line.
Merriman does what he is assigned to do in their defensive scheme. How can you fault him for that?
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 9, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because if he could cover they would have him do that as well
(though not often) he can’t so they don’t.
by quincyyyyy on Aug 9, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he is not a complete linebacker you can't give him a 10
a ten means he is almost perfect in every aspect when of course he is not.
by quincyyyyy on Aug 9, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On your scale?
When we go to quincyyyyy’s site, maybe, but on mine a 10 means that the player is the most talented at his position. When Ware is in the running for a DMVP, email me. Until then, he’s not at Merriman’s level.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 9, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He beat merriman in sacks, tackles, and forced fumbles last year
what more do you want? He is just a better player than Merriman. And Merriman is only as good as he is because he juices.
And Ware is in the running for defensive MVP this year according to a lot of sports writers.
by quincyyyyy on Aug 9, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pre-Season
What people say now means nothing. Let’s talk in 20 weeks.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 9, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No I'm talking about the regular season last year
Ware was a better player by any measure last season. So at this point you have to say Ware is a better player unless Merriman proves the contrary. Otherwise you are just being biased.
by quincyyyyy on Aug 10, 2008 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was in last year's conversation
Of course, Sanders blew everyone else away, but he was easily a top 5 candidate.
Pretty clearly the first time he has ever looked at a web site. "And there are readers' comments at the bottom! And advertisements for products! And best of all, I won a free iPod!"
-Ken Tremendous on Mike Downey.
by BudLight on Aug 10, 2008 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
The Chargers don’t ask either of their OLBs to cover. Shaun Phillips does the same thing on passing downs: blitz.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 9, 2008 3:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And a lot of experts say Phillips is nearly as valuable to that D as Merriman
Why? Because he can actually do other things.
Incidentally, I looked up the numbers from last year. Merriman’s sack numbers were immensely impressive for a player who missed time, but he didn’t generate as much total pressure as most elite pass-rushers.The top player in the league as afr a QB knockdowns (sacks and hits) was Aaron Kampman, with 32. Ware ranked 3rd with 27. Merriman was tied for 12th with 21.
In hurries, Kampman once again lead the league (21)Ware was tied for 3rd (19), and Merriman did not make the list (9).
Pretty clearly the first time he has ever looked at a web site. "And there are readers' comments at the bottom! And advertisements for products! And best of all, I won a free iPod!"
-Ken Tremendous on Mike Downey.
by BudLight on Aug 10, 2008 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whats your reasoning for having Crowell so low?
His 126 tackles were the 8th most in the league last year.
Chad Nkang is a safety
Cliff Avril is a DE
Mike Schneck is a long snapper. I honestly don’t believe he has ever played a down at linebacker in the NFL. Why even list those last 100 guys if you don’t know that much about them?
by kaisertown on Aug 9, 2008 5:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Okay
Avril was a DE in college and will play end or outside linebacker in the NFL. Since the NFL’s rosters list him at LB, so do I. Same with Nkang.
Why list every player in the NFL? Because no one else is.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 10, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Lions site lists Avril as a DE and that is where he lined up in their first preseason game. He won’t line up as a linebacker one time this year.
Nkang played linebacker in college and that must be why NFL.com lists him there, but the Jags official site lists him as a DB. He is essentially just a special teamer anyways.
Hilee Taylor is another one who is going to play DE in the pros.
You should really take Mike Schneck off the list. He didn’t even play a position in college. He has been in the league for like 10 years and he even made a pro bowl (I think). Frankly it is embarrising that you list him in front of 90+ actual linebackers including John Digiorgio who had 107 tackles in 14 starts last year. His 113 tackles were the 20th most in the league last year, but apparently there are 228 better LBs in the league as well as 2 DEs and a long snapper who are better linebackers too.
by kaisertown on Aug 11, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
The Colts long snapper is a better linebacker, and he’s offically a Tight End.
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
(Yes, that is a non-Lil Wayne lyric sig).
by shake n bake on Aug 11, 2008 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I appreciate you mentioning Schneck. The long snappers are listed individually on one spreadsheet of mine and then in their listed position with the NFL on another. As you see here, he got put in with the listed position on accident.
As for DiGiorgio, that’s just my error. No matter how many times I reviewed a list, it seems one or two guys slip my mind and then the list is posted.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 11, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frankly it is embarrising that youHey man, I’m not trying to call you out, but it’s not a real good idea to tell someone that they’re embarrassing themselves if you can’t spell embarrassing. That’s frankly embarrassing.
by cgolden on Aug 11, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradie James is overrated, incidentally
I feel bad doing this, Matt, because you’re going to get criticism any way you do this- but James is merely solid in everything he does. He will never, ever enter the conversation of top 10 linebackers.
Pretty clearly the first time he has ever looked at a web site. "And there are readers' comments at the bottom! And advertisements for products! And best of all, I won a free iPod!"
-Ken Tremendous on Mike Downey.
by BudLight on Aug 10, 2008 12:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and
To me he will. Being solid in every aspect (run/pass/cover) for an ILB is extremely valuable, as are his leadership skills. There are not many (any?) better 3-4 ILBs in the NFL.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 10, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ray Ray!!!
just having fun, but he is ranked higher on your list.
by math_geek on Aug 10, 2008 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I still consider him a 43 guy though. They are more hybrid I guess.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 10, 2008 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to add to the dogpile
What’s the reasoning behind Bobby Carpenter being ranked over LaMarr Woodley? Woodley seems like he’s on the brink of a breakout season but Carpenter is playing for a special teams role isn’t he?
by cgolden on Aug 11, 2008 4:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good ?
I love Woodley and I’m convinced he’ll be a star within the next two seasons. On that same note, I would say that Carpenter is more talented, and some of this is based on his amazing potential coming out of OSU.. It’s hard to compare ILBs and OLBs and 3-4 vs 4-3, and one thing I’m working on is a separation.
With that being said, Woodley will most likely surpass Carpenter this season.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 11, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
carpenter
Oh I didn’t even know that they’d moved him inside. I thought he was drafted as a OLB. Both defenses run a 3-4 though.
by cgolden on Aug 11, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
He was an OLB at OSU, but is playing behind Zach Thomas for now.
www.newerascouting.com www.mockingthedraft.com
by MattMiller on Aug 11, 2008 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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