First-round quarterbacks not among division leaders
Former Browns and Ravens scout Daniel Jeremiah is making great points about taking quarterbacks in the first round today on his Twitter page.
Here's how he started the discussion:
Here's some food for thought...of the 8 division leaders, 6 of them are run by QBs not taken in the first round...
The two teams with first-round quarterbacks are Indianapolis (Peyton Manning) and Cincinnati (Carson Palmer). Both were selected first overall. Here are the other six teams:
• Minnesota Vikings - Brett Favre - Second round
• New Orleans Saints - Drew Brees - Second round
• Denver Broncos - Kyle Orton - Fourth round
• New England Patriots - Tom Brady - Sixth round
• Dallas Cowboys - Tony Romo - Undrafted
• Arizona Cardinals - Kurt Warner - Undrafted
Jeremiah also offered this nugget:
of the 8 last place teams in each division, 6 of them are run by 1st rd QBs
Interesting. But it should also be noted that the last four Super Bowl winners -- Pittsburgh Steelers, New York Giants, Indianapolis Colts, Steelers again -- were quarterbacked by players they took in the first round.
The last good bit here from Jeremiah was his advice:
Long story short.. In a new situation, I would only take a QB in rd 1 if I felt STRONGLY about him.. go vet and draft one in later rds
So now that leads us to the 2010 NFL Draft. How strongly do people feel about the likes of Sam Bradford, Jake Locker, Jimmy Clausen or even Colt McCoy? Each has plenty of concerning aspects to their game. But three of them -- Bradford, Locker and Clausen -- seem like first-round players. Are they really players who could lead their teams to the top?
But projecting the success of college quarterbacks sure seems like explaining the plausibility of time travel. It's eye-crossing, confusing stuff. So, the real point here (if there is one) is make sure you're following Jeremiah on Twitter. His tweets will certainly get more interesting as we approach the draft.
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I think what happens alot of time's is teams who take first round QBs fall in love with their measurables (mostly arm strengeth) too much
See Jamarcus Russell, Byron Leftwich, and most likely Matt Stafford.
There is a lot of stuff in that has to go on in between the ears as well to be a good NFL QB.
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by Jonathan Loesche on Nov 18, 2009 4:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I just want to know from some of you all; what are some concerns about Clausen?
by TheRealSlimShady on Nov 18, 2009 5:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
He’s not great at any one thing. He’s just solid.
Mocking the Draft: Your NFL Draft source.
by Mocking Dan on Nov 18, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting. But maybe it’s uncommon. Last year, 5 division winners started former 1st round picks at QB. In 2007, just 3 (still more than this year so far). In 2006, 5 division winners again.
While you can find good or even franchise QBs outside of round 1, it’s still quite rare. And research indicates that your best bet for finding a top flight QB is to draft the consensus top 1 or 2 in any given draft. Now, every year and every prospect is unique, and that doesn’t always work, obviously (we all know the names); there’s always exceptions, good and bad. But it’s worth remembering that a team’s much more likely to find success by taking on the top QBs (if given the opportunity) than by waiting until the mid rounds to unearth the next Tom Brady. That’s simply unrealistic.
I think I agree with his comment that’s it’s preferable to “go vet and draft one in later rounds,” but obviously that’s a luxury many teams simply don’t have.
Also, i think beyond the infamous megabusts (Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, potentially Jamarcus Russell), teams reach too much in the mid-to-late first on QBs, as the position is just so important. (JP Losman was a first round pick, for instance.) The link above actually suggests caution once you get beyond the top 1 or 2 QB prospects, as the correlation between draft position and performance decreases rapidly from the #3 QB on down. So maybe the lesson is to really do your homework before deciding to trade up for the #3 QB on the board.
Anyway, just my opinion, but I don’t see any franchise QBs in this class.
by jianfu on Nov 18, 2009 5:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Aside from Orton and Romo
Most of those guys are pretty old. There really hasn’t been many 2+ rounders lately who’ve been successful.
I don’t think that has any real reason. Teams will draft a QB if they need one before anything else.
I doubt that teams that need a QB are just gonna wait till round 2 hoping to find the next Farve or Brees, cuz chances are, some team in the late first round is gonna snatch him up anyway.
Is there a franchise QB in this draft? I don’t know. It depends on where they go. I can say that the one that more than likely goes to Seattle will have a better chance than the others.
All these QB’s have talent, its just can the coaching staff develop their talent and also can they get an O-Line in place?
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 18, 2009 5:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Kolb and Henne are younger round 2 guys who have shown something. Not saying either’s the next Favre or Brees, though.
by jianfu on Nov 18, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
true...
but they haven’t even had the success of Jason Campbell yet.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 18, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also remember
Drew Brees was drafted with the first pick in roudn 2, so he’s much closer to a guy like Jason Campbell or Josh Freeman than he is to Kyle Orton or Tom Brady. The division of the draft into rounds is just arbitrary. Brees is an argument for picking a QB high.
by Brendan Scolari on Nov 18, 2009 9:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't like this kind of stuff
It’s part of the reason many Niner fans don’t even want to consider drafting a QB in the first round. Here’s what I would say is a much better argument:
Who would you say have been the six most successful franchises in the last five or six years? I’d argue that the Pats, Colts, Steelers, Eagles, Chargers, and Giants could be that top 6. Notice a trend among that group? They all have had extremely good quarterbacks, and all of them but the Pats took that quarterback in the top 11 picks of the first round. Even the Pats took Drew Bledsoe with the first overall pick and he was fairly successful, they just got lucky and found Tom Brady (and even they would tell you it was luck).
Drafting a franchise quarterback is the single easiest way to turn your franchise around by far, as teams that do find those guys are usually competitive for at least the next 10 years. At the very least you are almost assured of having a pretty good offense. The difference in value between a decent QB and a decent player at nearly any other position is enourmous. Look at how much Jay Cutler and Matt Schaub brought back in trade without being top QB’s and compare that to a player of equal caliber at another position. You think an average safety or defensive tackle is worth 2 firsts and a third? Heck, are they even worth a 3rd? Kris Jenkins and Shaun Rogers were only worth slightly more than a 3rd rounder and they were top DT’s.
Also remember that (except in very rare circumstances), you’re not going to find a quarterback worth his weight in salt in free agency. Pretty much any other position you can sign a player and get solid production out of him, but if you haven’t drafted a good QB you probably have to give up a king’s ransom in a trade to find one. Which brings up another point, when you draft a QB you pretty much get exclusive negotiating rights with him for his whole career, as they never hit free agency. Drafting Peyton Manning paid off for the Colts long after his rookie contract expired, no other team has ever had a chance to bring him aboard.
And the easiest way by far to draft a top QB is to pick one in the first round. What many people forget is that for every Tom Brady or Matt Hasselbeck there are 10 late round QB’s that didn’t work out. Bottomline is if you don’t have a franchise QB the biggest mistake you can make is passing up on one in the draft. How mad would the Niners be if they passed on Sam Bradford for Terrence Cody and Bradford turns into Philip Rivers, even if Cody were to become a very good NT? A player who plays 60% of the snaps on defense and only has any value on running plays just has nowhere near the value of a player who plays every snap on offense and is the biggest factor in how well the team plays on offense, even if both of them are top players.
That said, of course you must still be disciplined and try to find a quarterback you really like. It would be foolish to take a QB in the first round only for the sake of taking one. And I have no problem with drafting a later round QB to develop him and seeing if maybe you can get lucky and find a diamond in the rough. Just know that you’ve got perhaps a 45-50% shot of picking a franchise player when you pick a QB in the first round, but with a late round pick you’ve beaten the odds if you drafted Ryan Fitzpatrick or Luke McCown, because 9 times out of 10 you’ve picked the next Adrian McPherson, James Kilian, Bradley Van Pelt, Josh Harris, Andy Hall, Craig Kenzel, Cody Pickett, Stefan Lefors, or Casey Bramlet. If you don’t know who those guys are, that’s exactly my point.
by Brendan Scolari on Nov 18, 2009 10:22 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
for the record
I was a huge Adrian McPherson and Cody Pickett guy.
Draft guru in training.
by tj.hendricks on Nov 18, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff. I think what this boils down to is that drafting a quarterback is perhaps the biggest crapshoot in sports. This part was the most striking:
Drafting a franchise quarterback is the single easiest way to turn your franchise around by far
It’s also the single easiest way to kill a franchise for years. So it just goes both ways, seemingly so drastically.
Mocking the Draft: Your NFL Draft source.
by Mocking Dan on Nov 19, 2009 2:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It definitely hurts really badly to draft a QB bust
But I think the whole “Drafting a bust QB in the top 10 kills your franchise” thing is overblown. Remember, correlation does not mean causation. Basically, I’d say if a team drafts a QB that doesn’t work out that means they are probably not as good at identifiying talent at other spots either, so they will end up worse off at the other positions. Obviously drafting the bust QB still really hurts (because having a guy like Alex Smith at the most important position in football kills your offense) but usually the front office of that team fails when drafting players at other positions too.
For example, the aforementioned Alex Smith has really hurt the Niners by playing so poorly (or being injured) but an even bigger factor was the fact that the Niners 1st and 2nd round draft picks from 2001-2005 produced these 9 players: Andre Carter, Jamie Winborn, Mike Rumph, Saleem Rasheed, Kwame Harris, Anthony Adams, Rashuan Woods, Justin Smiley, and David Baas.
Had the Niners gotten more than one effective defensive end (Carter) and a decent guard (Smiley) who had done anything for their team they wouldn’t have been the trainwreck that they ultimately were the last few years.
This effect is more obvious when looking at teams like the Ravens, Titans, Cardinals, Bears, and Jaguars, all of who have drafted quarterbacks in the last five or six years (Boller, Vince Young, Leinart, Grossman, and Leftwich respectively) who have been busts or at the very least not helpful to their teams yet these franchises have at least been fairly successful in that time. All of them have made the playoffs at least twice in the last four years except the Cardinals, but they went to the Superbowl last year and will in all likelyhood win the division this year. Drafting a bust didn’t kill them because they were still able to add talent to other areas of their team, but if your the Browns and you’ve got like 3 good players on your team then you are going to be terrible.
To bring back the Niners example again, picking Sam Bradford instead of Terrence Cody doesn’t kill the franchise even if Bradford busts as long as the Niners keep getting good players with their other picks. They would lose whoever they could have drafted with that pick instead (say Taylor Mays or Terrence Cody), a few million in cap space because a QB gets paid more more than a player at another position at the same draft spot, and the opportunity to draft a QB with a high pick for the next few years (because they wouldn’t want two huge contracts at the same time). I don’t think anyone could say those three things will single-handedly “kill a franchise”, but if the Niners miss on their next few first round picks and don’t find anyone in the later rounds then that probably will.
Basically I agree to an extent that taking a QB is a risk because if you pick a bust you are likely to have bad QB play for at least the next few years and lose whatever player you could have picked instead, but the even bigger risk is passing up on a QB you think could be pretty good just because you are afraid of picking a bust. Then you are betting that you will find one of the few later round guys that develops into a good player, otherwise you’re at a huge disadvantage with regards to building a consistent contender.
by Brendan Scolari on Nov 19, 2009 5:12 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yup.
it works with every team.
Why are the Broncos better than the Bears were with Kyle Orton? Maybe cuz they drafted well along the offensive line?
QB’s are one thing; a good one can make the entire team better.
But if the rest of the team stinks…Guys like Tom Brady, Drew Brews or Peyton Manning don’t become who they are.
You gotta draft well.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No the Browns have good 7 people. Joe Thomas, Shaun Rogers, Eric Steinbach, Alex Mack, Dqwell Jackson, Kamerion Wimbley, and Eric Wright are good. Yea, we suck bad though
by TheRealSlimShady on Nov 19, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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