Picking the Franchise Quarterback- A difficult decision
by lifelongvike on Feb 6, 2010 12:33 PM EST
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I was wondering if there would be less busts in the first round at the Quarterback position today than years past. I figure at todays salaries surely Teams would do their homework better. So I looked back to see who the 1st round busts were lately.
2007- JaMarcus russell
2006- Matt Lienhart
2005- Alex Smith
2004- J.P. Lousman
2003- Kyle Boller
2002- David Carr
1999- Tim Couch
Akili Smith
Cade McNown
Now you might not consider all of these guys busts. Some like Lienart and Quinn really are not tested yet. Some had bad careers with bad teams. (Couch and Carr). I'm just pointing out that they were drafted in the first round to be "Franchise QBs. All the rating services had them as quality Franchise material. All the fans thought they would be great players. So far none have produced at that level. All set their franchises back in the growth process.
As a Viking fan picking our next QB is very important to me. What makes some QBs good and others bad? I found the following article from a Browns poster reviewing the 1999 initial draft for the new Browns team.
http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2010/1/11/1244038/a-look-back-1999-nfl-draft.
His look back is fasinating. Here is how he reviewed the QBs prior to the draft. He did not include Culpepper.
"Akili Smith: He was a one year wonder. He was a great athlete (drafted by the Pirates) and made huge strides in his senior season. He was raw and had all the tools. Who cares if he only played in 11 games? Right? Right?!
Donovan McNabb: 45 career starts at the 'Cuse. He set (at the time) Big East records in Passing TD's, TD's responsible for, passing yards, total offensive yards, and total offensive plays. In other words, McNabb was a great college QB. McNabb had a problem though. He played in an option offense that didn't pass as much as the other top QB's. Coming out of the 'Cuse, McNabb was mostly compared to Kordell Stewart. A great athlete just playing QB.
Tim Couch: Couch had great numbers. 71.5%, 38 TD's and over 4,600 yards. Never mind that he played in a run and shoot offense. His offensive coordinator at Kentucky was Mr. System himself Mike Leach. Couch was rarely asked, if ever, to read a defense. He had a quick release and a strong arm. The only thing that was missing was the question that everyone had. Was the offense at Kentucky a system that allowed any QB to look good? (Considering any QB that has put on a TTech jersey seems to throw for 5,000 yards, I would lean towards, yes it is a great system.)"
Are Clausen, Bradford, Snead, Pike one year wonders? Bradford sure hasn't played much. Are they system quarterbacks? Pike is a shotgun guy.
Do they have good college stats? Clausen's aren't bad but he's no record holder.
I am sure as you look over the list of non-franchise QBs drafted in the last ten years you can start to see a pattern of reaching by teams and making the same mistakes. People are already picking which college QB will be the new #1 pick in 2011. I really want a Franchise guy at the helm of the Vikings. How to figure out who that will be is a difficult process.
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Clausen’s aren’t bad but he’s no record holder
I think you will have a tough time finding QBs with 68% and a 28/4 TD/INT ratio in a pro style offense
by TheRealSlimShady on Feb 6, 2010 2:45 PM EST reply actions
also with the other great QB's at ND...
kinda hard to set all those records in 3 years.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
I think he was serious.
Saying that ND has had some great QBs and its hard to break their records in only three years. I’m thinking it wasn’t that long ago that we finally allowed freshmen to play in college.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
yes it was serious.
ND’s had plenty of great college QB’s in their history haven’t they?
Clausen would have to do a lot in order to surpass them
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Key word is history
The last “great” Notre Dame QB was Montana. Other than that there have been a bunch of decent QBs like Buerlien, or some down right overrated turds like Mierer and Powlus.
Romo'd be on the list first...
but he gets a pass cuz he was undrafted….
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Crap I keep forgetting. Eli didn't win a division championship game.
Eli didn’t win a conference championship game. eli didn’t win a superbowl.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
Yes...
Romo’s team won a playoff game now, so apparently he invented sliced bread.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
No thats not good enough. He invented Bread itself. Manna from Heaven.
Hes a very good QB. Please trade him to the Vikings. Now.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
SORRY THAT POSTED TO SOON.
Eli didn’t win those games. The defense won it. Quincyyys rule.
Ok add Eli to the bust list. And then please trade him to the Vikings.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
for every first round pick in Minny's future
Jared Allen and Kevin Williams, Adrian Peterson, Sidney Rice…and of course, Brett Farve’s fountain of youth.
Give or take Steve Hutchinson and Chad Greenway
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Sorry, we won't give up Phat Pat williams.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
Eli is a bust considering what they traded for him
1. Phillip Rivers, who has been playing like an elite QB on Peyton Manning’s level the past couple of years.
2. Shawne Merriman – when healthy he is one of the most feared pass rushers in the league
3. Nate Kaeding – one of the best kickers in the league
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Why is that funny?
Rivers has been playing on Peyton Manning’s level the past couple of years. I love Romo, but I would take Rivers over him.
Eli is not anywhere close to Rivers in terms of talent. Just on that alone Eli is a bust. Not to mention you passed on Roethlisbeger who is worlds better than Eli as well.
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OMG. Is that Beer Comming Out MY Nose!!!
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
Key it was the holders fault!
Laces Out!!!!!!!
Yeah the Giants defense won the superbowl
Eli just did the minimum amount that is expected from a NFL QB in that game.
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See I wanted to show you that I remembered your rule.
The Cowboys hold Philly scoreless for two straight games. Romo kicked their ass.
Eli marches down the field to win the Superbowl. The defense wins the game.
See. I learned Quincyyys rule.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
This is the rule in the NFC East.
Eli torches said defense…the defenders missed the tackles, fell down, a combo of both…or it was offensive pass interference.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Eli had one or two good drives in that game. WOW he is Tom Brady!!!! LOL!
And Tony Romo hung 24 and 34 points on the Philly defense, which alone is enough to beat most teams. Eli’s offense had 17 points against the Pats, which will normally get you beat let alone playing against the one of the best offenses ever assembled.
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Patriots 2007 defense >>>>> 2009 Eagles defense.
Philly’s D wasn’t all that much better then the 2009 Giants D
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Not at all
Pats secondary wasn’t all that great that year. They may have been better than Philly’s defense, but don’t act like they were a million times better than philly’s defense.
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fine
Patriots 2007 D >>> 2009 Philly D.
Why you gotta bring this Dallas vs NYG stuff up on here I dunno man.
But I respect your opinion on a lot of stuff, but its really questionable on this.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
what!!!
didnt the patriots have Asante Samuel that year. Also Brandon Merriweather as a safety. Wilfork as an NT. Bruschi, Vrabel. They had a good defense that year. Giants beat them. 14 points from a Patriots team that was hanging 45 points to teams week after week. I remember Cowboys lost to the Patriots that year, and it was not even close
Um it was pretty close until the end of the game when they ran away with it
In fact we led them at one point in the 3rd quarter. Anyhow we scored 27 points on their defense. Which is exactly the point I’m making. LOL! Their offense was special and their defense was nothing special.
Asante Samuel is a very good corner, but because he gets a lot of int his coverage skills are overrated. A lot of Philly fans will say that Sheldon Brown is a better cover corner. And I’m pretty sure Merriweather wasn’t starting in his rookie year. Bruschi that year also wasn’t nearly as good as he was in the past as well.
Anyhow, Pats did have a good defense, but it wasn’t great or anything special. Their offense was special. Which is why the Giants defense deserves the credit for beating the Patriots and not Eli Manning and his offense.
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Giants defense was ranked 17th
Behind the Jaguars and the Chargers, who so happened to be the Patriots 1st 2 opponents that year.
So…why didn’t those teams win? They had better defenses then the Giants.
Giants won as a team. Eli and the passing offense (cuz the running game was non-existant) is as big a reason why the Giants won as the defense.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 7, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
They held the '07 Pats to 14 points and they only scored 17
The defense won that game and Justin Tuck was the MVP. that much is clear.
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The whoe defensive line was great that game.
Brady still played a great game, but Eli outplayed him.
You may forget that until that final drive…Brady was playing well enough to win.
…eh, who the hell am I kidding.
Eli’s a bust. Knock your self out with your flawed bias argument.
I’m gonna go watch SB 42. The one where my team, the Giants, was led by Eli Manning and the defense.
Maybe you don’t respect what Eli did cuz its been a while for your team in the SB????
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 7, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
Yes...
they did.
They had a better defense that year too…but since Eli sucks and is a bust, he managed to but up a measley 132 QB ratings.
Which…to me is meaningless as they won the game, but to obsessed statheads, might mean something.
Also funny…hilarious actually…if anyone cares to read above…the Giants had the 17th ranked defense that year.
The NE Patriots…get this, 4th. 4th overall defense, but they weren’t very good and weren’t as good as the Giants D huh?
Eli did absolutely nothing against an extremely average 4th ranked defense.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 7, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I was amazed at that stat
they were ranked 4th and the Giants 17. i thought it was the other way around
That is because for the first half of that year the Giants sucked
and Coughlin was this close to getting fired. Later in the year their defense turned on the Jets, that is why the stats seemed skewed.
New England’s defense was good, but not as good as you would think looking at the stats. Because teams were always playing from behind since New England’s offense that year was so amazing it made teams one dimensional.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Our defense was up and down that year
Eli picked on Jaques Reeves, whom sucks, all game. Eli stayed away from Newman and Henry.
And I said Pats had a good defense that year. Don’t put words in my mouth, but they weren’t great or anything special, and the defense had the advantage of playing with Brady and New England’s offense.
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and you still only scored 17 points against them
that was below the average for most teams playing the Pats.
So when you normalize it Eli played below average, and most other teams were usually playing from way behind also.
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Below average?
They let up 17 points a game on average. Their defense played out of their ass too, Eli was hit a lot in that game.
Keep searching for more, that ain’t it.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Ok fine at best your offense that game played average
do you want me to give you a cookie? It was your defense that played amazing. Not the other way around. You won because of your defense
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So...
the way the Patriots played…
It was 14-10. Patriots defense played incredible up until that final drive.
What happene on that final drive?
Was it an INT for a TD?
I don’t recall that. I recal Eli Manning alone leading them down the field for the final drive to win the SB.
You’re biased.
Try again.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
I recall an amazing catch on a poorly thrown ball by Tyree
to keep the drive alive
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I can recal Eli slipping out of a sack
to make that throw.
I can also recal that whole drive where Eli made throw after throw to drive them down.
Keep denouncing their SB accomplishment cuz of your jealously.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Not at all That was a great accomplishment
to hold maybe the best offense ever assembled to 14 points was an amazing feat and something to be proud of. But to say Eli won the game for you is just plain silly.
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to say he didn't
is also silly.
They won as a team. With Eli Manning as their QB.
To say they’d do so otherwise is delusional.
You don’t know what they’d do with a different QB.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
jeez quice drop it man
you should be a little happy that the cowboys won a playoff game this year. Your hated Giants made 2 Super Bowls, and Your old time rival Steelers have won 2 Super Bowls
okay we are talking about the 07 Patriots here
they were ranked #4 in Defense. The most points scored against them were by the Giants in Week 17. Followed by the Eagles, Dolphins and then the Cowboys.
keep going quicyy...
its obviously your hatred of Manning. The jealousy of what he accomplished is mind boggling.
I’m sarcastic on Romo, he’s a good QB.
Just know…that if the Giants had the Cowboys 2009 defense this year…the Giants I guaranteed are in the playoffs and possibly still are playing.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
I agree, but not because Eli is better than Romo
You would have advanced because your OL does not give up 8 sacks in a game. I have been a huge fan of the Giants OL for several years now. They do not get the credit they deserve.
In years past...yea.
Somehow, across the board 4/5 of them graded out in the top 25 of all OL’s.
….the problem was Dave Diehl was one of the worst LT’s in the league last year (can’t have your LT that bad).
I dunno what it was. Kinda seemed like the only games he was any good was the Cowboy games.
Eli was running for his life more then ever. Even tho his decision making was quicker then its ever been, he still took the most sacks and hits he’s had in his career….that’s on the OL.
Combine that with Bradshaw having 2 broken feet, Jacobs apparently playing the whole season with a torn meniscus in his knee (he says he could’ve got surgery after week one against the Foreskins…), Ware dislocating his elbow and out for the first half of the season.
Through all a that (and losing 2 veteran WR and replacing them with essentially rookies) Eli had his best season.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
and a broken foot.
forgot about that.
Dunno how that compares to a broken pinkie…but…
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 7, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
Someday Quincyyyy I will do a post on what is and isn't a valid argument.
No one mentioned Eli in the post except you. You didn’t inform anyone with any facts that would equate a superbowl winning QB with the non performers mentioned in the post. Lamely, you simply post your version of “Eli Sucks” in a forum that is inappropriate. A post that was meant to start a conversation concerning the value and importance of drafting a QB with a high draft choice.
You then defend your position by suggesting that someone equated Eli with Tom Brady.
Well that person was you. If you were a woman I would almost think you have Penis Envy.
But you have a good drafting mind. And I know you are loyal to your team and have a rivalry with the Giants. But please sometimes your absolute disdain of a good NFL player gets tiring.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
YOur right Eli didn't
The Giants did. Man I really hate the way people give so much credit or blame to QBs. Eli no more won that Superbowl than Tony lost the game vs the Vikings.
I agree...
its just as dumb as saying “the defense won the game”. No…the Giants won the game.
I doubt the Cowboys go as far as they did this season if their defense sucked (like the Giants defense sucked)
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
I agree
Eli made some big plays and if he does not escape that sack they lose. I was rooting for the Giants to beat the Pats in that game. Eli played very solid and mistake free. I do not hate Eli, okay maybe a little, but he IS a Giant! ; )
I hope you do hate Eli...
he’s a rival.
I don’t understand the “he’s a bust, he sucks” sentiment from your fellow fan.
I know what Romo is. I can’t stand him, but I respect that he’s a solid QB.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
He threw a horrible ball on that play
Tyree made a once in a lifetime catch on a ball that shouldn’t have been caught.
I think Eli had a good year this year, but for the past few years he has been a pretty meh QB.
And he is not worth more than Rivers. Rivers is a much much better QB. Heck he is not worth more than Rivers + Merriman + Kaeding. Hence bust.
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Kaeding loses games
Merriman’s a distraction for a team, and Rivers is like Romo, puts up stats and regular season numbers with nothing to show for it.
Numerous sites say Eli’s among the top QB’s in the league in terms of ‘clutch’ statistics…many times better then his brother in this case.
I take Eli over those 3 any day of the week.
Here’s a question for ya quincyyy…
If those guy are so good….how come the Chargers haven’t won the SB?
Chargers D is as good or better then the Giants year in and out. What’s their excuse?/
Eh quince?
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 7, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Becuase winning the Superbowl is not that easy
it requires a lot of luck as well.
But you are saying you would take Eli over Rivers?
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absolutely
100/100 times, Eli over Rivers.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 7, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
How so?
Either take the guy who’s “more talented”, with the more talented team and who was traded for 2 extra players..puts up more numbers…yet has absolutely nothing to show for it?
Or take the QB who led my team to a SB…without Shawn Merriman on the team or Nate Kaeking kicking FG’s.
…tell me how that’s being a homer?
Cuz Rivers puts up tons of stats with 2 Plaxico’s (Floyd and Jackson) 1 Shockey (Gates), a OC who has a clue (Turner)…and oh yea, plays in San Diego which is 1/100th the spotlight of NY, 100x better weather, gets to play the Raiders and Chiefs 4x’s a year too?
Tell me where Rivers is better aside from his shiny stats (in which when they went head to head…Eli outplayed him…Giants defense let him down).
Tell me. Where is that a homer?
I don’t expect people like you and quincyyy to understand how a QB winning a SB for you makes them your QB for life anyway…..
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Football is a team sport first and foremost
Rivers has Peyton Manning Potential and has played like it the past two years. Eli has Phil Simms potential.
I don’t expect people like you and quincyyy to understand how a QB winning a SB for you makes them your QB for life anyway
Dude are you serious? I’m a Cowboys fan. We have won 5 Super bowls. If Peyton Manning was playing in the early 90’s I would trade Aikman for him straight up. I love Aikman, but Peyton is a better player.
You are blinded by your homerism. I’ll admit Eli had a somewhat good year this year, but he has been a pretty meh QB for most of his career.
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wow..
Aikman.
Maybe if Eli had HOFers playing at RB, WR, LG, he’d win 3 SB’s?
Have YOU seen all 5?
I’ve seen 3 SB’s for my team.
Simms? Eli will SHATTER every single one of Simms’ records.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
In today's passing league
it is easy to break old records
And I have seen 3 of the superbowls.
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like I said
in today’s passing league records are getting shattered all the time. Romo already holds many passing records for the Cowboys. And the Cowboys have had many great QBs.
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100/100 times is putting it lightly.
Never…is better.
I’d never trade Eli for Rivers. Ever.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Eli's team with Eli has
accomplished more then all those guys on the Chargers.
Soo…..how is that not worth more?
It is worth more.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 7, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
So you are saying
if the Chargers offered you Kaeding + Merriman + Rivers for Eli, you would not take that deal?
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Rather have Tynes then Kaeding (he's a choker)
Merriman’s a headache (less so then even Osi now)
And Rivers…could he succeed in NY, in the bright lights of the East Coast.
This isn’t Madden…..attributes don’t translate. He won’t have Norv Turner, Vincent Jackson and Antonio Gates on his team either.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 7, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
dude you're nots
And Rivers has much more fire in the belly than Eli. Rivers has about as much passion and fire for the game than anyone. Plus Rivers has been putting up big numbers even before Jackson had his break out year this year.
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fire and passion?
wow.
Cuz you can see Rivers play with passion and fire means he does it more then Eli huh?
Why am I even arguing with you?
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
I don't know
but it is pretty crazy you won’t trade Eli for Rivers straight up LOL!
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You know some of us would be fine with either Qb
"HULU: An evil plot to destroy the world. Enjoy"
Driver of the "Cut Reggie Nelson" Bandwagon.
No kidding!
As it is, we have to “settle” for Garrard and Moore.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 8, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
He reminds me of Tony Romo
It remains to be seen, Carolina definitely has an elite supporting cast. Moore will have the oppurtunity (sp?) to succeed.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 8, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
nope.
Never.
Rivers + Merriman + Kaeding…has done nothing.
Eli has done championship.
Are you laughing at the simple math, or do you realize that you are jealous?
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Your defense won a championship
and once Spagnola left your team tanked. Coincidence? I think not.
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YEAAA!!!!
LOL!!!!
Spagnuola was it!
The team TANKED in 2008 too with Spags back there.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
in one game
that is an extremely small sample size, for most of the year your defense was playing very well.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Not really...
From the Philly game and on, they sucked.
That’s week 14+
They got figured out.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
I dunno how its even arguable.
The Chargers made the deal. They have had a more “successful” team over the years in the regular season. It hasn’t resulted in anything for them.
Eli + the rest of the team (not including Merriman and Kaeding) has resulted in a SB championship.
So…who won this deal?
The team handing out more guaranteed money to the QB that puts up shiny numbers?
Or the team that won a SB championship?
I’d say any Giant fan that wants to trade Eli for Rivers is a complete utter fool and their parents should’ve been sterilized before their existence was created.
As for Cowboy fan…I respect your opinion on this one, but given the situation of your team, your incredibly biased and wrong.
Eli being a bust is your argument? That’s about as bias as anyone can get.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Chargers have had a very good team since that trade
they haven’t won a superbowl yet, but winning a superbowl is a very hard thing to do and also requires a bit of luck.
The fact that you don’t realize how much better Rivers is than Eli makes me question the extreme level of your homerism.
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How much better is he!
Yes the Giants have done everything by luck.
Everything. Its all luck.
I’m done on this. See ya next year quincyyy….LOL!
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Yeah I didn't even say that, but you go on erecting your strawmen arguments
Yes the Giants have done everything by luck.
because you clearly can’t produce a legitimate counter argument.
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You can talk about "passion and fire"
But just because he acts like a child when he’s playing football doesn’t mean he’s passionate about it. It just means he has no control over his emotions.
Why would you laugh out loud over that? Who would trade a SB winning qb for a guy like Philip Rivers?
We’re talking about the same Philip Rivers, right? Philip Rivers?
Would you trade Trent Dilfer for Philip Rivers?
I mean he is a superbowl winning QB as you would say. LOL!
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LOL!!!!
That’s hilarious!!!! You’re making so many good points!!! LOL!!!
You can’t throw out the homer label w/out realizing just how hypocritical you’re being.
how am I being hypocritical?
do you even know what that word means?
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You’re trying to denounce the accomplishments of a QB who just happens to be a rival of your team. He’s a rival of YOUR team. Don’t you think that skews your viewpoint, just the slightest? You’re being a homer by even starting this whole argument. Why AREN’T you denouncing Trent Diler right now? Why does it have to be Eli? Because you’re a Cowboys homer and you’re pissed that all they can do is choke in the playoffs.
So, you throw around the homer label when in fact you’re the one being a homer. Do you know what hypocritical means?
I'll denounce Dilfer
He sucks. Eli is better than Dilfer. Eli is an above average QB, but to not trade Rivers for him straight up is silly and homerism at its peak.
So maybe you can say I’m jealous, which I’m not, but saying I’m a hypocrite makes no sense. If I were you I would go invest dictionary.
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I explained it word for word
Maybe you should, “go invest dictionary.”
I’m finished arguing with someone who is so ignorant that they’d rather argue semantics than the actual topic of discussion.
LOL!!!
I addressed both issues
Dilfer and the meaning of the word hypocritical. It is right there in my post. But I’ll post it again here since you seem to have some literacy issues.
I’ll denounce Dilfer, He sucks. Eli is better than Dilfer. Eli is an above average QB, but to not trade Rivers for him straight up is silly and homerism at its peak.
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this isn't Madden.
You can say you’ll throw Romo under the bus and trade him for Rivers…
but there’s only one or 2 I’d give up Eli for, that’s the 2 guys in the SB.
Even they have a lovely dome stadium and play in the south with lovely weather games.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
And you clearly have not watched Rivers play over the past couple of years
Rivers has been playing out of his mind.
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When it matters, right?
He’s been playing out of his mind when it matters? What did he do against the Jets? In the playoffs? When it mattered?
Jets have a really good defense
Anyhow Rivers does play well when it matters. He played very well in the divisional game last year against the Steelers. Threw for over 300 yards 3 tds and an int. But they still lost. Maybe because football is a team sport? Get real.
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exactly why I don't make the trade.
despite Rivers’ shiny stats, Eli’s meant more to his team. More then Romo too.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 8, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah throwing for all those tds and so few ints
means nothing and it is just a shiny superficial stat. LOL!
And Eli meant as little to his team as any QB could in their superbowl run. They had a very good defense, and the Giants were the second lowest team in the NFL in pass to run ratio, because they relied on the run game so much and not on Eli’s arm.
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Bill Walsh
This might not be directly relevant, but I recently came across something Bill Walsh wrote about evaluating quarterbacks back in 1997.
In another article, Walsh says that the win-now mentality would have prevented Joe Montana from reaching the pros.
One more
In somebody’s blog post, an interesting observation is made that both Terry Bradshaw and Joe Montana made a rocky path mid-career.
Great Article MB
The single trait that separates great quarterbacks from good quarterbacks is the ability to make the great, spontaneous decision, especially at a crucial time. The clock is running down and your team is five points behind. The play that was called has broken down and 22 players are moving in almost unpredictable directions all over the field.
This is where the great quarterback uses his experience, vision, mobility and what we will call spontaneous genius. He makes something good happen. This, of course, is what we saw in Joe Montana when he pulled out those dramatic victories for Notre Dame.
I remember watching Joe Montana in the Cotten Bowl. He threw a Touchdown pass and due to the flu went to the locker room. Other team scores. Here comes Montana on his deathbed to throw the winning touchdown. Bravest QB work I have ever seen.
But Joe was weak armed and had limited mobility. The Cowboys said they would cut him in training camp anyway and some team drafted Steve Dils ahead of Montana. I guess some things never change in the NFL.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
Couch should be cut some slack
He did play for one of the worst NFL teams ever.
This is a very weak year for QBs. Personally I think Lefeavor(sp) will probably be the best QB in the draft. Of course he will not be ready for a couple of years.
Most QBs are not ready for a couple of years
Take away Marino, Rothlisberger, Ryan, Flacco, and Sanchez and almost every other QB had a bad couple of years or sat on the bench. My point is that they are suppose to sit for a couple of years.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
I don't know how to respond to that.
Either your simply talking about stats or your kidding. I mean Peyton had a horrible first year also but he didn’t go and win a playoff game. No one thinks Sanchez was a bad QB to draft high that I know of. The knocks on him last year was his inexperience and his slightly weaker arm than Staffords. When you compare college stats Lienhart looked more like a lock than Sanchez IMHO.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
Actually if you take away the hype machine
A lot of analysts questioned the Sanchez move. It is still way to early to call the Sanchize a quality QB. He has a lot of improvement to make and has to show he can really lead a team. He had a solid year and definitely has shown potential.
Hype not important
but when a QB is drafted you want them to be able to handle the speed of the game. He has done what only 4 rookies QBs in the history of the NFL have done. Started as a rookie and taken his team to the championship game. He was well worth the price. There is no debate that I know of. I’m not saying he has hit Franchise status. But I can’t see any downside to him from this point on.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
Leinart
hasn’t really set back the Cardinals. He was knocked out of his second season with a season ending injury. His back up was Kurt Warner. After what Warner has accomplished in his second coming it’s not fair to assume that Leinart lost his job because he is a failure. The Cardinals are lucky to have him now that Warner has retired. He still has to prove himself but now he has 4 years in the league behind a future Hall of Famer to have learned from in addition to all the potential he had coming in as a rookie.
A year from now we can call him a bust, or not. The hype piled on him as a top 10 pick was stomach churning. The Cards were not in a position to have immediate success even if he played in stellar fashion. With a much improved offense we’ll now have the chance to really see what the guy can do.
I agree with your assesment and Flounders take on Couch.
As I said it could be to early to call Lienhart a bust. I’m a firm believer that QBs have to have time to learn the pro game and succeed. He has had a chance to learn behind Warner the way Tarvaris Jackson has had a chance to learn behind Farve. The point of the post was how do we differentiate these QBs. I remember the draft w/ Lienhart. When Arizona drafted him I couldn’t believe it. His college % were great. His arm strength was great. His college was top notch. All the scouts thought he was the top dog. And no one drafted him until Arizona was on the board. And so far it appears that the pro scouts were smarter than the internet scouts.
If I would have had the chance to draft him #1 and had a need for him then I would have pulled the trigger. I want to know what they knew that I didn’t.
Any help would be appreciated.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
FYI It is impossible to predict who will be a franchise QB
It is a crap shoot. There are so many intangibles that go along with being a QB that it is impossible to evaluate. The reason being is because any QB you draft has to grow into becoming a NFL QB, and there is no way of knowing how that player will eventually develop.
And honestly I don’t think Tarvaris Jackson is all that bad. He may end up being a good QB. I think he just needs more time. Just because he wasn’t Peyton Manning in his first couple of years doesn’t mean you should toss him on the heap. And that is the problem with teams today. If they don’t get results from their QB in two or three years then they toss them. You may be able to do that with most players but not with QBs. QBs need time to develop, and that requires commitment from their franchise who drafted them to stick with them through thick and thin.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Very good point.
I will agree that it is hard to accurately evaluate a QB. But the facts don’t lie. The top drafted QBs do succeed more often than later round QBs. These are statistical facts. So someone knows what to look for. I think the best reasoning is to not reach for a QB just because you need one.
But it sure would be nice to know that theone your team drafts late or not drafted at all will be successful.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Feb 6, 2010 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
You have to go with your gut
Who knows if Clausen, Bradford, McCoy, Tebow, Pike, LeFevour, Snead, Canfield, etc will be really good or a franchise type QB.
For my money, I am going with Tebow. He just plays football. All of the “experts” are saying he wont make it and all of this other garbage is ridiculous. He is the kind of kid you want. One with a mountain of a chip on their shoulder.
After Tebow, for the Vikings, I like Canfield & Pike. Canfield is going to surprise some people. He did play in a pro style offense and completed 70%of his passes last year or close to it. His arm is not that great but the ball gets there. That is all you need.
Since Clausen & Bradford will be gone, I like Tebow, Pike, & Clausen to take a gamble on.
It is all a gamble right?
Troy Williamson was a huge gamble.
That is very true that it is a gamble.
But over the long haul the 1st QB taken has a 50% better chance of being successful than the 2nd QB taken. And the 2nd has a 40% better chance of being successful than the 3rd Qb taken. The third or worse really fare poorly. So even though its a gamble the pros do know what they are doing. Lets consider that only 10% of all QBs not taken in the first round are busts. Yet less than 10%, of all QBs taken, are in the first round.
This shows that the best bet ( favorite) are the first two QBs taken each year.
My post was trying to show that of those highly drafted players some ( like Akili Smith) have obvious deficiencies and flaws. Hopefully the Vikes won’t draft a QB high with those kinds of risks.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Feb 6, 2010 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
what makes a first rounder
Generally, the first rounder succeeds more often because they have at least one trait that is definitely good. So you are reducing the variables. Size and arm strength are favorite factors – it got Russell and Boller drafted. You also have to separate the drafts based on potential vs. demonstrated skill. Everyone knew Russell was a project. And even Alex Smith to some degree. Guys like Akili Smith were one-year wonders in college.
Last year someone on the NFL Network was recounting a talk with Parcells on drafting QBs. Parcells has this long list of qualifications he wants. College graduate. Multi-year starter, three years preferred. Chad Henne met his standards.
I like Tarvaris Jackson. Agree with quincyyy above (sorry if I missed a “y”), he is a guy that needs time. Played against a different level of competition in college. For draft picks, I like Pike, not Canfield. Canfield does not have the arm strength needed.
I really like the combine for comparing QBs throwing ability. You get to see all the players make the same throws back to back, making it easy to compare. It really helped White from WVU to stand out last year. The problem is, the top guys don’t go.
Thanks. We like Tarvaris also but he has had time.
Remember this was his 4th year. That is why he is a RFA. He has already started 19 games. Record 10-9 with a 59% completion rate. 21 TDs-18 INT. The problem is that he and Rosenfel were in training camp this year and neither were good enough to win over the coaching staff. No one is complaining that he isn’t Brett Farve quality. We simply believe that the coaches don’t believe in him. We will know when we see what kind of tender contract they put on Tarvaris this year. If they want him for the future they will protect him and let him try one more year or lock him into a long term deal now. Otherwise it will be another failed Viking stab at a QB. We hope you and Quinccyyy are correct because we want to use our draft picks on other spots.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
19 games is not a whole lot
Peyton was 1-15 in his first 16. There’s no definite number, but I would say Eli took three years to be a good QB. Stafford and Sanchez will likely not have QB ratings above 90 next year either.
The advantage is that you have a good team, so even if you like your current guys, you can afford to pick a QB early.
Yes, all NfL QBs say the game has to slow down for you.
I’m only suggesting that if it didn’t slow down in three years and the coaching staff ( agood one by the way) doesn’t believe in you then its time to move on. All Vikings hope that Tarvaris is the QB of the Future. And we will know soon what the FO thinks of him.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
Vikings QB Strategy
Regardless of what Favre does I would sell the farm and move up to wherever I needed to to get Clausen or Bradford.
If I couldn’t move up then I would pick Tebow in round 1 if he was there or Pike in round 2 if he was there.
If neither is there then I pick LeFevour or Snead in round 3.
Regardless of the above I would also pick a Skelton or Brown or Crompton in round 5.
Why two QBs? The Vikings will need backups.
Who knows what will happen?
With the odds against them they have to try something. Green Bay did it with Brohm int he 2nd and Matt Flynn in the 7th and Flynn turned out a better fit or just better.
I'm certainly not against the coaching staff deciding
that the 3rd best QB ( whoever they decide) is worth the #30 pick. If they do that then the 62 pick will probably have to be a CB. Hope the guard and LB can come later. Picking another QB up late in the draft isn’t a bad idea. I’m assuming if you pick a QB #1 then you are letting either Sage or Tarvaris go. Its a plan. We will see what the FO does soon.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
How did this get to a Eli bashing contest?
Aren’t franchise QB’s supposed to be the QB on a SB winning team?
Didn’t the Giants win a SB?
I’ll answer.
Yes. And Yes.
Eli = Franchise QB. To call him a bust is delusional and the work of a rival, jealous fan who’s team has done exactly one playoff game win in 14 years.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
Trent Dilfer is a franchise QB by your logice LOL!
And Dan Marino isn’t.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
Okay, is anyone else annoyed by some peoples use of
LOL!
That’s what degenerates conversation, degrading the other persons point of view excessively. I realize a bunch of people here are still adolescents, but come on, you guys can do better.
Eli is by no means a bust, first of all no bust wins a Super Bowl. He also doesn’t throw for at least 21 scores five years in a row. His stats this year: 317/509 for 4021 yards and a TD/INT ratio of 27/14. He had career highs in QB rating and completion percentage, and sacks. All this while being injured. While Rivers may be the better passer, both of them are quality QB’s, and this debate is pointless.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 8, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
I was only mocking when I used it
I was offended by how it was used towards me. It didn’t make me a better person to throw it back, but I guess I felt better afterwards.
my bone.
THo I hope you can see how annoying the initial remark was. Sometimes I forget who’s making the counter argument…a rival fan.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 8, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
fine
HA!
Anyhow, Eli is a bust when you consider what they gave up for him. two first rounders and a third rounder. And they could have had Rivers. You don’t have to be a bad player to be considered a bust. You could even be an above average player like Eli or Reggie Bush, to be considered a bust.
And you admit that Rivers is better. Hence bust.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
SHUT UP ABOUT ROMO AND MANNING!
I’ve got copy and paste ready to go.
by TheRealSlimShady on Feb 8, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
A quality QB isn't a bust, no matter the circumstance's
What’s the gurantee Rivers would have performed better on the Giants? He has one heck of supporting cast in San Diego, his first year starting he had LT in his prime, after that he had an elite passing offense with Gates, Jackson, Chambers, Floyd, Sproles, LT, and that offensive line was golden for his first few years. With the Giants, his supporting cast wouldn’t have been as good, and the pressure would have been higher. You thought there was an uproar when he yelled at fans in San Diego, he very well could have been deafened had he done that in New York. Point is, Manning isn’t a bust.
And if you consider Reggie Bush a bust then something is seriously wrong with your definition of bust.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 9, 2010 3:26 AM EST up reply actions
yeah it is not like Manning has played behind a good offensive line
or had receivers like Plaxico, Shockey, Toomer, Smith or had a very good running game. Oh wait… He did! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
OL's better at run blocking
Shockey and Plaxico loved to drop passes as well and Toomer has been as slow as molasses since 2006
Try again quince.
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
And Rivers had no help at WR until last year
Vincent Jackson was a so-so starting WR until recently. And their running game has been nothing special the past couple of years. So lets not exagerate Rivers situation either.
And everyone’s receivers drop passes. Toomer Shockey, and Plaxico had no more drops than your average receiver. Unless you can show me stats that prove otherwise.
2009 BTB Fantasy Champ... Deal with it
In 2007, Eli’s receievers dropped 32 passes, 2nd in the league
Everyone drops passes, over the years Giants receivers have been near the top of the league in dropped passes every year.
2008 39 dropped passes. 2009 38 dropped passes. That’s top 5 in the league each year
So no….not average. Near tops of the league in drops.
Try again.
200
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 10, 2010 8:36 AM EST up reply actions
When Rivers came in as a starter
he had LT when he was in the middle of his prime, breaking records, smashing the opposition, etc. The next season, his targets began to develop, LT was still good, but Rivers struggled a little. The season after that, LT really fell off, but Jackson, Gates, and Chambers stepped up and gave him reliable targets, along with Darren Sproles. This season, he had V-Jack, Gates, Chambers, Floyd, Nanee, Sproles, and LT. That is one heck of a supporting cast for a passin goffense.
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
by Flowing Willow on Feb 11, 2010 5:53 AM EST up reply actions
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