Draft Strategy: Positional Value
Greetings MtD,
I posted this over at BigBlueView, and thought it would be relevant here as well, sort of, I guess as a primer on positional value. Take it for what you will. Towards the bottom is stuff relating specifically to the Giants. I kept this in there in case there are any mockers that are having trouble with Giants picks, this should help you out.
The way I define positional value is to Madden-ize a team. Take your team, make every single player have a rating of 99 (that's basically all star status) and have the particular position you are looking at to be extremely crappy and then look at your chances of winning.
Another way to define it is how much the player who is great at the position helps you win games.
These rankings are by no means objective, but are generally agreed upon (although cases can be made to move a few around):
1) Quarterback - This couldn't be more apparent. You could put Peyton Manning on the Panthers and they could be a threat
2) Offensive Tackle - Especially LT (if QB is right handed), they protect the QB against the best pass rushers to maintain his rhythm AND have a very prominent role in run support as well. The blindside tackle gets more of a boost.
3) 43DE/34OLB - The pass rushers are the other side of the equation. You disrupt (or in the Giants' case, knock out) the QB, and you have the potential to dominate the other team. Also are key in run support.
4) Wide Receiver - The great ones overshadow their QBs sometimes. Can be game changers. Look no further than the impact Plaxico had in Eli's progression as a QB over the years.
5) Cornerback - A good one can single-handedly win a game for you. I know the Jets' defensive scheme is a spot of contentious debate, but I fully believe that a Nnamdi Asomugha or Darrelle Revis (that can shutdown a #1 WR) can open things up for everyone and make the QB hold the ball longer to support the pass rush.
6) Running back - Also can be gamebreakers, but are lower on the list then WRs because are at least somewhat dependent on Oline run support. Also, good ones are found much more often in the later rounds, whereas the drop off is significant from the 1st round to the later rounds with the positions ranked above.
7) 3-4 NT - Apart from rush lb's, probably most important in 34 DEF. Has to be able to gobble up 2+ blockers to free up rushing lanes and clog up the middle against the run. A good one is vital to be a strong defense.
8) 4-3 DT - Same reasons as the NT, but are not as vital in clogging up rushing lanes because, well, there's 2 of 'em. Also have some pass rushing duties as well.
9) MLB/ILB - Have to be versatile enough to lock down middle of the field and also provide run support. Of great importance because they are primary signal callers and must recognize offensive formations to call audibles. Often are the field generals of the defense.
10) Offensive Guard - We can see the importance of having a great one, as we have one of the best in Chris Snee. Most effective in run support and can provide devastating blocking for the running backs. Also help in pass support, trying to juggle both DTs and DEs.
11) 43OLB - Are more limited in their flexibility and are used to sometimes cover the TE and chase down the RB that gets the edge. Are this low because a strong defensive line can let you get away with mediocre LBs, which has been the case with the Giants.
12) Tight End - Have a plethora of jobs. Some are used as a safety blanket for the QB (See: Dallas Clark, Jason Witten), and because of their size, are valuable in run support, often getting downfield and trying to block safeties and LBs.
13) Center - Generally have to be the smartest offensive lineman, has to be responsible for maintaining QBs rhythm with the snap count, and has to taken on the beefiest dudes when blocking up the middle.
14) Safety - We've seen what happens when you don't have good safeties. You might disagree with this ranking because C.C. Brown regularly shows up in Giants fans' nightmares, but I think that serviceable safeties are fine if the rest of the defense is strong. They are the last line of defense.
15) KR/PR - Two names. Devin Hester. Desean Jacka--, err, Jackson.
16) Fullback - Some teams don't use them, but good ones are invaluable. Remember Mike Alstott?
17) P/K - Used obviously in special situations. Can literally make or break games, but apart from a few exceptions, are a dime a dozen
Ok, so, where the heck am I going with all of this? Well, as a general rule of thumb, this means that if two players are of "equal talent," you look at the position. This means that a fantastic QB prospect (Sam Bradford) will ALMOST (there's always exceptions) beat out a historically legendary DT prospect (Ndamukong Suh). It means that when considering what to select, this is a strong influence when it comes to BPA.
This is somewhat obvious (the draft is almost always top heavy with QBs, CBs, WRs, DEs, DTs, etc and low on G, S, TE, etc)
Giants stuff starts here
With that said, here are the positions of the first 3 rounds of each Giants draft since 2006:
2006: DE, WR, MLB
2007: CB, WR, DT
2008: FS, CB, WR
2009: WR, OLB, OT, WR, TE
2010: DE, DT, S
With the exception of 2008 (when we picked 31st) did we pick a position ranked lower than 5 in the 1st round. Dline and WR dominated the rounds, so it seems Jerry Reese averages around the 4-8 range in terms of positional value in the first three rounds.The mean positional ranking was actually 6.7.
Reese is heavily involved with the BPA strategy. That's the reason why we picked JPP. Clint Sintim (even though he played 3-4 in college) and Will Beatty were projected by almost all pundits to be 1st round or very high 2nd round picks.
There were only a few times that Reese picked low positional values in these rounds. The only times that positional value didn't affect Reese's picks were when the players were BPA by a long shot (like Sintim), or JR foresaw it being a huge need in the future. Based upon this information, along with the fact that JR has made it known he likes BPA, and assuming that the current prospect rankings are where they are...
I'm going to predict that if Akeem Ayers is available when we pick, he may or may not be the selection depending on how high he is on JR's board. If he is around 19-20, and Brandon Harris is of similar value, based on JR's history, I'm going with Brandon Harris as the pick. However, if Ayers is ranked around 12-13 to Reese, as is his rank in many big boards, I can easily see him being the pick.
Similarly, this is the reason why I believe that Mike Pouncey will NOT be the pick. The positional value is just not there. He will have to be very high on Reese's board in order to be the pick. I can see Gabe Carimi, Derrek Sherrod, or Nate Solder as likelier picks.
Thoughts? Criticisms? Rock on, fellas.
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Nice post
meat and potatoes basic stuff.
What if a team has a QB they like (not elite necessarily) a LT, Rushers, at least one WR , and decent CB’s? Would you not pick the best player available then in any position?
Top 10 draft picks (cause of the money involved) would be excluded.
I could make a case that top tier Safeties can make a defense 10 spots better as a unit.
see 2010 Chiefs :)
Just try to STOP US
I'll bet Scott Pioli had Eric Berry as his 1 or 2. He's a once in a generation talent
…so that’s gotta be taken into consideration haha.
And yes, in the situation you mentioned, BPA would come into effect for sure, dismissing of course, P, K, and the like. And QB, unless some ridiculous talent is available.
2011 Dream Draft
1) Akeem Ayers, OLB
2) Mikel LeShoure, RB
3) Kris O'Dowd, C
4) Davon House, CB
5) :(
6) Henry Hynoski, FB
7) Eric Hagg, SS
by BigBlueIntervention on Feb 16, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
re the Giants portion
IF a Tackle is the pick is he a LT or a RT? I already have figured out he needs to be a giant power blocking scheme man-mountain.
Just try to STOP US
I'd say he needs to be capable of being either a RT or LT
Beatty is still an unknown, but the Giants haven’t exactly shown that they mind a guy without elite athleticism at LT, given Diehl and they took a chance on 370lbs Shawn Andrews.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
we just need big guys that don't get hurt.
haha, seriously though, Rorschach has it….we need to be stout at the point of attack and be able to bull his way over defenders in run blocking
2011 Dream Draft
1) Akeem Ayers, OLB
2) Mikel LeShoure, RB
3) Kris O'Dowd, C
4) Davon House, CB
5) :(
6) Henry Hynoski, FB
7) Eric Hagg, SS
by BigBlueIntervention on Feb 16, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
alot of guys have trouble playing either tackle, its something you have to teach from a young age. I play tightend in a system where the tackles we play both sides, but I will tell you, some guys have real trouble doing it. Left tackle is generally considered the more protective of the two positions(in a one scheme lacking transformation) where as right tackle are considered the power guys.
"To all the critiques, thank you for the motivation… because it has been an edge for me and will continue to be an edge for me" - Tim 'the Mile High Messiah' Tebow
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by David G. Little on Feb 17, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
CB I think is higher than WR
also 4-3 DT, NT and 3-4 DE are higher as well.
The QB is far and away the #1, so that makes defending him far and away #1. Getting after the QB is obviously priority #1 so pass rusher is there. Then getting a corner that can buy you time for the rush or defend if the rush doesn’t get there is #2.
The importance of the defensive line is also higher than the RBs and WRs as well.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I guess you could make the argument of CB over WR...
in a way, both act in supporting roles towards the main acts (QB and rushers).
As far as DTs go against RBs…well, would you rather have Ndamukong Suh or Adrian Peterson? I’d have Peterson, but hey, not going argue against having Suh either.
2011 Dream Draft
1) Akeem Ayers, OLB
2) Mikel LeShoure, RB
3) Kris O'Dowd, C
4) Davon House, CB
5) :(
6) Henry Hynoski, FB
7) Eric Hagg, SS
by BigBlueIntervention on Feb 16, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
Suh, all day and twice on Sunday
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I agree here
CB I think should probably be 2nd only to QB. Maybe behind QB and edge rusher I guess. Then OT and then maybe DT. The franchise numbers would seem to support this
IMO
A thought
in fantasy football who gets picked early in the usual draft?
Playmakers and the quys that score, I guess I disagree that Running backs are considered a commodity anymore. Seems back in my younger days, RB’s were routinely taken in the 1st round. I think it might be more about Passing offenses when you compare WR vs RB. Most bad teams need other than WR/RB’s and most good teams already have them.
Just try to STOP US
Since we're talking Giants, just rep'ed them in group mock
1. Akeem Ayers
2. Rodney Hudson
3. Chris Hairston (didn’t see Love and Carpenter were still around, like both of them better)
You like?
Choke/Clutch is the fetishization of the small sample size.
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it." -Voltaire
even if going to center?
Choke/Clutch is the fetishization of the small sample size.
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it." -Voltaire
by shake n bake on Feb 16, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
personally I don't mind the mock
Hudson performed well in the Senior bowl and with a little bit more weight could be a presence at center or left guard
2011 Dream Draft
1) Akeem Ayers, OLB
2) Mikel LeShoure, RB
3) Kris O'Dowd, C
4) Davon House, CB
5) :(
6) Henry Hynoski, FB
7) Eric Hagg, SS
by BigBlueIntervention on Feb 16, 2011 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
Hairston's also probably strictly a RT
Much rather have someone with the capability at least to be a LT in the future like Carimi.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
You had the analysis right in your mock
Where the Giants failed last year was the 3rd-and-1 conversions. Could not get a straight-ahead push. So I think Hudson and Wisniewski would not help them.
Carpenter ahead of Hairston and Love.
where can I see the results of the group mock?
by theSpaceCityKid on Feb 17, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
here
http://www.walterfootball.com/forum/showthread.php?21551-Rudsdog-3-round-2011-Mock-Draft-Recap
Choke/Clutch is the fetishization of the small sample size.
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it." -Voltaire
by shake n bake on Feb 17, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
I guess KC found its idiot :)
Just try to STOP US
by Steve_Chiefs on Feb 17, 2011 9:13 PM EST up reply actions
Those player trades made no sense
The Waters deal was an absolute no. Does not work for either team. And Tamme for 8 spots in the 3rd round?
I was horrified by that deal
dude was either upset with me for criticizing the Greg Jones pick in the 2nd or took a crap deal to trade up just so he’d be done.
Choke/Clutch is the fetishization of the small sample size.
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it." -Voltaire
by shake n bake on Feb 17, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
nice post.
I think that should be the blue print towards drafting. Sprinkle in cost savings into the equation and u got urself a mantra.
Only beef is that the rankings are going to vary by scheme. Eg the jets are going to value corner higher than most; as are the steelers with olbs.
by Crackback on Feb 16, 2011 8:11 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Tight End is much more important than you think. They have to get open, catch, AND block, sometimes having to block ends or even Guards on counter plays.
You can get a guy in the latter rounds to do all a that
maybe not at a Tony Gonzalez level, but an Anthony Fasano or Kevin Boss level.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I believe that
RB should be higher than WR, corner is a bit too high, and MLB is too low.
The Few. The Proud. The Detroit Lions Fans.
Everybody do the John Wall.
I have contented that there are only 4 positions with great value at the top of the draft:
QB – This is a passing league after all and their is no position more tied to NFL success than the QB.
LT – With the importance of QB’s, teams better be doing their best to protect their QBs against the most valuable of defensive players…
Pass rushers – This used to be defensive ends, but with the 3-4 more prominent the real value is in getting after the QB regardless of the defense the team runs. If a guy can be a pass rusher for the team he has a great value. Quarterbacks are the most valuable offensive player, so the most valuable defensive player is the guy who puts QBs on the ground.
CB – Again, its a passing league, so stopping the pass is just as important and this goes hand in hand with the pass rushers. Fluster the QB and don’t give him a place to throw the ball.
These are the positions that teams are most likely to reach for because of their value. Players at other positions are obviously considered based on their talent level, but all talent being equal, these four hold the most value.
Mocking the Draft - Writer
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by Josh_D on Feb 17, 2011 2:03 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Nice
King, Queen, and the two Bishops
rec
Just try to STOP US
by Steve_Chiefs on Feb 17, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
Rec'd.
Quality post, too, BBI.
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by Frederick0220 on Feb 18, 2011 3:57 AM EST up reply actions
nice read
probably should be tweaked for scheme somewhat.
Consider the orginal Tampa-2 for example: The scheme succeeds due to great performances by Derrick Brooks and John Lynch. You can get by with much lesser coners.
Safeties in general should be higher than 14 IMO. Critical for any zone blitz scheme.

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