Is Belichick Stubborn On His Drafting Process?
Hey all, I'm a Patriots fan looking for some unbiased (or biased, whatever) perspective about Bill Belichick and the draft. I figured this was the place to come since it is devoted to the draft. I figure you all know a lot more than me, so I just wanted to give some things that have been debated over at patspulpit recently to see how you guys feel about it.
After resident stats guru Rich Hill wrote a piece called "Patriots Must Strengthen The Outside" discussion broke out over how to fix the outside linebacker problem that the Patriots obviously have. There is always the feeling that a team's players need to just play better. Sometimes players can't play better though. Sometimes they are what they are, just not good enough.
Over the course of Belichick's tenure, he has continued to pass on outside linebackers that don't fit some specific mold. I offered up the idea that Belichick is waiting for that Lawrence Taylor type guy that can come in and save the defense, and it was met with much chagrin. But, if you look at all the outside linebacker picks Belichick has done when he hasn't had a Lawrence Taylor (or Willie McGinest), it is kind of obvious that Belichick is not willing to waver on this particular part of his defense.
Now the Patriots had Willie McGinest until 2005, so the first time Belichick went searching for that Taylor/McGinest replacement was in 2006. So here are all the linebackers the Patriots have drafted since 2006 that fit the Taylor/McGinest mold Belichick has been looking for.
2006 - 191st overall - Jeremy Mincey - 6'3'', 260 pounds (notes: was a defensive linemen in college, taking on the "elephant" role in a Belichick defense)
2008 - 78th overall - Shawn Crable - 6'5'', 250 pounds (notes: played strong-side linebacker at Michigan)
2009 - 97th overall - Tyrone McKenzie - 6'2'', 243 pounds (notes: outeside linebacker at South Florida)
2010 - 53rd overall - Jermaine Cunningham - 6'3'', 260 pounds (notes: defensive end at Florida and would fit into the "elephant" role in a Belichick defense)
2011- 194th overall - Markell Carter - 6'4'', 252 pounds (notes: outside linebacker and defensive end at Central Arkansas)
Lawrence Taylor was 6'3'', 241 pounds and Willie McGinest was 6'5'', 270 pounds. All of those draft picks fall in that specific range, but none came anywhere close to what I assume Belichick wanted. Jermaine Cunningham still has time to pull it off after having a pretty successful rookie campaign, and newly drafted Markell Carter I'm sure will be given an opportunity as well. If that isn't enough, outside linebacker Eric Moore is another one of the Patriots potential starting outside linebackers for next year, and he stands at 6'4'', 268 pounds.
Here are some of the comments from members over at patspulpit about it.
You draft people based on what they're MEANT to do, not what they actually doMeriweather was meant to be an every-down Safety who could also play special teams – a four-down guy. Maroney was meant to be an every-down RB who could also play special teams – a four-down guy.
Matthews is a pass-rusher. A third-down guy. He doesn’t play special teams, he doesn’t run-defend, he doesn’t edge-set, and he’s not a great tackler of RBs (see: Mendenhall, Rashard). He’s a fantastic version of Tully Banta-Cain. He’d get 12 sacks a season, so what, twice the value of Banta-Cain. Cool. But that’s all he was ever meant to be – a glorified pass-rusher. And that’s it.
Banta-Cain was the 239th pick of his draft year. For the 239th pick, you can afford to pick up a one-down player.
Matthews was 26th pick overall. 26th overall isn’t worth a one-down player for New England. Sure, he’s twice as good as Banta-Cain at Banta-Cain’s role, but that might justify, say, the 120th draft pick. But 23rd overall for a guy who will play only a quarter of defensive + special teams snaps? Hah.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpitby Comedic.Sans on Jun 24, 2011 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions
That was Comedic.Sans' take on Clay Matthews, a very good linebacker that the Patriots had a shot at in 2009.
S'up MPF,I think the biggest problem is finding a guy that can fill the full role.
Draftees aren’t likely to do that for a season or two if ever. Look at the bust that was Crable, and he looked pretty good his first preseason. I think he’s willing to drop a few picks on the position, but the chance that some guy, any guy is going to be THE guy might be too small for a first rounder.
Vrabel was much better here than with the Steelers. I think he’s looking for some vets that can take on larger roles until he can develop some guys (or may until the Steelers can develop some guys for us – lol).
2007, pass rush wasn’t seen as a need.
2008, we had all the same “rushers”, but our secondary sucked – that was the first year I remember hearing questions about pass rush. We picked up Crable and the Wonder Twins.
2009, amid questions over pass rush, we dumped Vrabel and Seymour. We got Darius Butler.
2010, amid bigger questions over pass rush, we got McCourty and then Cunningham.
2011, amid even bigger questions over pass rush, we got Dowling and then Carter.I would assume, that the biggest questions in Hoodies mind are not about pass rush. Just guessing, mind you.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
Official Fire-Puncher for Pats Pulpit an SB Nation Blogby SlotMachinePlayer on Jun 22, 2011 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions
That is SlotMachinePlayer's take, mostly saying Belichick is waiting for a linebacker that can fulfill all of the roles he'd be asked to do.
We all know that the NFL evolves and changes, so why is Belichick so unwavering in his position on getting that exact outside linebacker that can "do it all?" Based on what you know can you think of any outside linebackers in the NFL right now that could fill this "do it all" role that Belichick seems intent on finding? Are there any upcoming linebacker prospects that fill this mold that Belichick is going after?
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I find Patriots drafts to be overrated. NN Florida Danny (now on FO) did a post on who drafted well based on pick and expected value and the Patriots finished last or close to last. I will try to find the links again and post it below.
As for linebackers that may fit Bellichick system I have no idea.
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"
I'd love to see those lists, thanks
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 26, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
that one is the wrap up. It is a 5 day thing and this is just the 06 draft review.
NE grades: F overall F for rounds 1-2 and D for rounds 3-7 for those who don’t want to click. But if you want an explanation I would recommend clicking on the link. Also you can follow Florida Danny on twitter http://twitter.com/#!/FO_DTuccitto.
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"
Also if you feel like creeping
http://www.sbnation.com/users/(Florida)%20Danny%20Tuccitto/blog
you can read everything that he wrote for NN by following that link.
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"
oh, well the 2006 draft was pretty abysmal
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 26, 2011 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
He said there was another post about the Pats and their drafts but it was before my time
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"
well they had some awesome drafts from 2001-2004
and they’ve had some good ones as of late as well.
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 26, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He might still be looking for the perfect OLBer
but he has done very well in finding the almost perfect ILBers
I believe Jerod Mayo is a stud
but I feel like someone needs to tell Belichick that you don’t always get the “perfect” player at every position. sometimes you gotta make stuff work before you start losing players at all your other positions.
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 26, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That dude's assessment of Clay Matthews is extremely laughable
not every pass rusher is simply just a 3rd down guy. Matthews is an every down player, maybe not special teams, but every down.
I don’t think Belicheck is looking to get the 80s Giants defense to Foxboro. LT was LT, probably the greatest pass rusher of all time. You can have your team tank every year for the next 20 years and not find another one.
Tho to be honest, the real problem is he doesn’t have Richard Seymour or Leonard Marshall. One of those 3 guys up front has to get consistent pressure. He hasn’t had that guy develop either.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
see I wasn't sure what to make of his Matthews comments either
he is a very smart guy and respected by many over at patspulpit, so I was at a disadvantage trying to argue any of this stuff it seems. That’s why I came and asked you all. Biased and unbiased opinions, but everyone’s is equally valuable to me until proven otherwise.
I wasn’t thinking he was trying to get that defense to Foxborough, but I do think he is wasting some prime years from Brady and some good draft picks trying to get a guy that might never fit the mold he is looking for.
The trade of Seymour was a good move for the Patriots. He would have cost them a ton and Belichick valued Wilfork and still had Ty Warren. I just don’t get why I was met with such criticism over there. Is Belichick not even allowed to be questioned in a reasonable manner?
I thought Belichick was a defensive genius, and so I wondered why he wouldn’t be able to use a Clay Matthews. Thanks for your respone. Can you think of any linebackers playing today that might fit the mold Belichick seems to be looking for? Any prospects coming up that might have all those skills?
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 26, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Just because Matthews is out there every down doesn't make him an every down LB.
Mike Wright is the key interior pass rusher, same as Jarvis Green from the early 2000s Pats. The limited snaps he was able to record before concussion vs the Colts had him the highest rated interior pass rusher in the league (PFF). Once he went down, the Pats struggled to get any penetration vs Gs and Cs without overusing Wilfork.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 27, 2011 5:06 AM EDT up reply actions
so some teams have players that do a lot for them, like the Packers
and some teams just get a lot of people to do all those things, like the Patriots?
I’m a little confused here. Why mention the loss of Mike Wright (one guy with a specific skill-pass rushing) when he doesn’t bring versatility? Are you trying to say that Matthews never would have developed any other aspects to his game if the Patriots had drafted him? I understand that, for the Packers, Matthews is used as a pass rusher, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t pull off the other parts of the game, it just means he isn’t used that way.
Which brings me back to Belichick. I’m fine with a guy who has 5(?) rings on his hand having confidence in his system. He lets his play-call make the play by everyone doing their job. I also understand the value of not tipping your hand to your opponent by not having versatile players. However, in this respect it also works the opposite way when watching the Patriots have a lead. When the Patriots have a lead and we know the other team has to pass, it sure sucks sitting there knowing we don’t have that guy that can come through. The “play” is supposed to come through for us, I know. The Pats however often will run a bend don’t break with those leads as to not give up big plays, I know that too. But think back to last year, and it was the players, not the “play” that came through for the Pats. One of the more popular was James Sanders picking off Peyton Manning. Sanders came off of the script, the “play” and made his own play. Jermaine Cunningham had a brilliant rush to the quarterback also, which I’m sure had a lot to do with it.
The players make the system work. We all know this. They are supposed to coexist. I just see Belichick as not being open to breaking that mold of an “every down backer” which I’m not sure how many exist in today’s NFL any more. That can be expounded upon later, sorry for typing so much.
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 27, 2011 5:48 AM EDT up reply actions
he's out there on the field, so he's not an every down player
that’s just awesome.
And yea, Mike Wright, Jarvis Green. Solid players…NOT Richard Seymour or Leonard Marshall or any other elite, All Pro caliber lineman.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
But they've been developed in house.
They can (or did, since Green’s retired, I think) generate pressure inside. They weren’t Seymour, but no-one was.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 28, 2011 3:51 AM EDT up reply actions
He's a liability against the run.
As soon as a pulling guard, tackle or decent TE gets hands on him, he’s out of the play. He plays the run on the way to the QB, same as Freeney or Mathis for the Colts. He’s covered by the other LBs (part of why their run stop rates are poor, they have to play with enough depth to cover Matthews), The DE on his side, and Charles Woodson. Now, this could be a result of GB’s scheme (let Matthews rush the QB, play the run with the other 10 guys) or the surrounding players, or both. But he is rarely able to make a play on the runner when someone’s on him.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 28, 2011 4:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Hardly a liability
although I would agree its not his strength. I wouldnt connect Mathews being maybe average against the run to GBs LB having poor stop rate though. That can mostly be explained by the scheme considering the team used nickel as their base in many games. When you play six or seven in the box on early downs (when most teams play eight or seven) you are not going to have good run stop rates at any position
Winning
Yep.
Stopping the pass in today’s game is much more important than stopping the run, especially when you can put up as many points as GB does. The numbers are also a bit skewed by running QBs.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Calling Clay Mathews a one down player
is laughable, he plays everywhere; was a special teams beast in college and could play that too if the team needed him too. That whole comment should be discarded as someone just talking out their rear end. The Chargers had a shot Clay Mathews too, and were just brain dead that day. It happens. Strangely the Pats do seem to passing on the position early and often, and I do not think it all about a guy being 6’4" instead of 6’3" or 270 instead of 255. The hoodie seems to not be prioritizing the position at the same rate as most of the league. My guess as to why would be a combination of his scheme and the nature of the division afc east. Now correct me if I am wrong, but the Pats run a base of almost pure two gap 5 man front; or a more traditional Fairbanks-Bullough 34. This base D and the division would seem to me that they are playing almost all single safety (early downs). Cover 1 and cover 3 with 5 man fronts/ 8 in the box would put the most pressure on the secondary, and that is where the hoodie seems to be drafting lately so this would make some sense. It would seem this scheme would devalue the passrsuher position more so, than 4 or 3 man front one gap schemes and perhaps this is appearing in his draft strategy.
Winning
thanks for that take on it
I think that comedic.sans is trying to make Clay Matthews sound bad just because he is tired of people thinking that the Patriots whiffed on that trade with the Packers.
as you said, Belichick’s scheme seems to devalue the linebacker, but I failed to see that as a reason not have a talent like Matthews.
I was just looking for a different opinion since they didn’t take too kindly to the idea that Belichick has been waiting for a specific mold.
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 26, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
If it makes you feel better
it seems the Pats learned. The best special teamer in 09 was Mathews, in 2010 it was McCourty. 2011 I am going to say Prince, who I am still pissed the Chargers passed on even though they already have to very good CBs under contract for 2011 and 2012. Some players are just better pros than their college resume projects, it’s not easy to find them because they can fly somewhat under the radar. The way I try and evaluate them is simply durability and tackling. If you do not get hurt and you are an exceptional open field tackler, even a scrub without prototypical size can make a living covering kicks
Winning
Clay Matthews was the best special teamer in 2009?
really?
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 27, 2011 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought so yes
But as I stated below to me special teams is just a way for a player to show that he can do a bunch of different things. Including running down the field to blast someone like his hair is on fire.
Winning
well I didn't even know he played special teams
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 27, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
The LB core he played with was quite stacked
Which is probably the reason he was finally moved to standup DE
Winning
gotcha
I just wonder why some Pats fans are so quick to just dismiss Matthews. They almost have the “he can’t set the edge” pre-loaded in their mind and the mention of Matthews triggers it
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 27, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I should mention
That I am talking about college when I was referring to the LB core and him moving to elephant, in 09 referring to him as a ST prospect. Here I just tend to think about everything in a draft context, I think you understood though
Winning
I did
he played at USC with Cushing and Maualuga?
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 27, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
He did.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Cushing won DROY
sure he was on steroids, but they did a re-vote and he won again. totally legit lol
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 27, 2011 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Keith Rivers before that
And Maiava too. SC had better LB core than more pro teams for a couple years there.
Winning
Corps perhaps?
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Matthews was definitely not the best STer in the 09 draft.
Brandon Tate was the all-time NCAA kick returns, kick return yards, KR/PR returns yards leader. McCourty was the best STer in the draft because Mayock didn’t know he was a 1st-2nd round corner, and everyone jumped on it. Peterson’s the best STer in the ‘11 draft.
But you don’t draft a guy in the first round because he’s the best at covering or returning kicks (although if you’re the Chargers, you probably should have), you draft him because he should be a multi-year starter. If he’s not going to be a starter, then he needs to offer something on STs.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 27, 2011 3:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps
I wasnt really considering return ability. Call it a combination of durability, open field tackling, stones, and versatility. And I realize teams dont draft a guy just because he is good at covering kicks, although that skill translates more than many would care to note
Winning
I should also note
That some players that cannot contribute in the kicking game may not even stay on a NFL roster long enough to develop into a starter
Winning
You pretty much called the Pats' defensive philosophy,
But missed the key point.
Disguise is crucial, so players on the field need to be able to both cover the pass and play the run. They need to be able to disguise coverages pre-snap, so players need to be able to play anywhere at their respective positions (DL, LB, DB), or better yet multiple positions, equally well.
Look at the players from the early 2000s. McGinest could play left, right, hand down, standing up, pass rush, run blitz, cover (reasonable well, although not as good as his pass-rushing/run stuffing); Vrabel could play right, left, inside, cover; Bruschi could play inside, outside, cover, blitz; Colvin could play left, right, hand down, standing up, cover, run-blitz; Seymour could play DE, DT, NT, even cover a little bit, and between 03 and 07 he was one of the two best D-linemen in the league. Ty Law was the best corner in the league for the period between Sanders’ and Bailey’s primes, and he could play press-man and zone equally well.
Having a designated pass-rusher (Clay Matthews) does not fit well with Belichick’s defense, because the QB knows what he’s going to do for every single snap. That’s one of the reasons the defense has struggle since 07, the guys that could do everything retired, and he’s had to go with guys that can only do one or two things (and neither at an elite level). Would Matthews be an upgrade over Banta-Cain? Absolutely. Would Matthews be playing any more than a back-up role if Belichick had McGinest, Vrabel and Colvin? Nope.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 27, 2011 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Clay Mathews is hardly a "designated passrusher"
The guy is a beast, and he can do it all. Try watching him play. As to this disguise aspect of the Pats 34, well it doenst to me seem to exist, at least as much as you think it does. If the Hoodie was so concerned about it, then maybe he would be looking to more athletic guys for the edge.
Winning
Heck, he didn't even rush the passer much in the SB.
Capers designated him as the spy on Roethlisberger.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
How you call perhaps one of the most versatile defenders
a “designated passrusher” is a joke for a couple reasons. Firstly the guy as you pointed out does so much more than rush the passer. He actually goes from a 34 edge rusher to a true LB in 3 and 4 man nickel sets. That is extremely rare as most 34 OLBs have their hand in the dirt in the nickel sets. And lastly calling a guy a “designated” passrusher like its some sort of derogatory term is itself weak. Getting to the QB is perhaps the most desired defensive trait
Winning
And honestly, he's the only LB that can get after the passer.
Who’s harder to block: Matthews or Frank Zombo? Matthews rushes the passer most downs because that is where his greatest value to the team lies. But he’s still a pretty darn good all-around player.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
thanks for your thoughts these help me a lot
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 28, 2011 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not a derogatory term.
Ware’s a designated pass rusher in Dallas, Hali’s the designated pass rusher in KC, there are others around the league.
He’s not bad at it either. But it’s his primary role, then he flows to the ballcarrier. When he’s playing a roving LB in the nickel (not as a true 3-4 ILB or 4-3 LB), it’s to blitz vs the favourable O-lineman.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 28, 2011 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Ware is NOT a designated pass rusher in Dallas
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Jun 28, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
How often did he drop into coverage last season?
15 snaps? 20?
That’s Houston’s biggest concern with Mario Williams under Wade Phillips, how often he won’t be doing what he does best.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 28, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
A game?
Look again. That number should be all season.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 4, 2011 4:57 AM EDT up reply actions
One of our stats geeks found this
Ware only dropped into coverage on 66 snaps out of 575 pass downs or 11.5%.
I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.
"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin
I knew it wasn't many,
but I didn’t have the exact number at hand. My thanks.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 4, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
is that a bad thing?
to be doing what you do best a lot?
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 28, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I am loving the discussion as everyone is bringing something
insertscreenname is just saying their role, which is munching on quarterbacks, causes them to mostly be considered pass rushers. when he says “designated” he most likely means that said player is the preferable rusher on their defense.
however, just because a guys strength is pass rushing, and in turn he rushes the passer a whole lot more, it does not mean he is terrible at other stuff just because he doesn’t do it.
Tom Brady doesn’t scramble. Randy Moss doesn’t block. Joe Thomas doesn’t catch passes. That doesn’t make them any less superb. Deion Sanders couldn’t tackle to save his life. I understand that right now, in Belichick’s scheme, a defensive player has to be versatile (and apparently be the most versatile defender ever, since nobody in the NFL right now could do what is being asked). I was asking about a change in scheme to fit some excellent player in that might not fit perfectly. From the arguments of insertscreenname, I am going to have to draw the conclusion that Belichick is stubborn. Great? Yes. Willing to adapt? It would seem not.
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 28, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
yea
just cuz a guy’s strength is one thing, doesn’t make them a designated anything.
Justin Tuck is a run stopper on the Giants. That’s his role. Doesn’t take away from the fact that he’s one of the best pass rushers in the NFL. Osi Umenyiora’s a pass rusher, but doesn’t take away from the fact that he’s pretty good against the run. And so on.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Jun 28, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Ware is also really good at stopping the run
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Jun 29, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
PFF had him rated really high on that aspect
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Jun 29, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
well according to pats fan (myself excluded)
no OLBs are good enough for Belichick’s scheme
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 29, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
which is why you guys don't draft any
geniusssssss
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"
which is why the title asks if Belichick is stubborn
meanie-head lol
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 30, 2011 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I meant genius like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5akqzv5qSfE
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"
lol
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Jun 30, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmmmm
I don’t recall anyone ever saying that.
No college prospects seem to be good enough to warrant a first round pick, though.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 4, 2011 5:01 AM EDT up reply actions
He's not in coverage then,
And he’s containing Roethlisberger. Once 7 moves out of the pocket, he’d rush him, hopefully unblocked and force a poor throw.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 28, 2011 4:17 AM EDT up reply actions
This is semantics, playing in a space and reading the QB can and often is done simultaneously
Winning
He's not in a zone, and he's not matched up with a receiver.
That means he’s playing the QB, whether that’s trying to beat a tackle or preventing him from running around.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 28, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
insertscreenname is very smart and definitely watches football
he might be too attached to his stats right now
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 28, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it is red herring lol
but I got what you meant
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 28, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Per Football Outsiders -
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2011/best-and-worst-run-stop-rates-2010
Ware – 91% stop rate
Suggs – 85%
Harrison – 85%
Briggs – 85%
Pace – 81%
Phillips – 80%
…
Matthews – 68%
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 4, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
so much for Ware being a designated pass rusher....
also if you cared to look at Matthews stats closer, he was at 84% in 2009 which was #2 in the NFL. That’s good
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Designated pass rusher -
575 pass snaps on the season, 66 dropping into coverage.
So 36 pass plays per game, and he wasn’t rushing the passer on 4 of them. Yeah, QBs can check him off as not coming, right.
Matthews’ defeats number halved, his yards allowed doubled. Now, maybe it’s because he was used in a different role to 09, with the Packers becoming more pass-focused. Or maybe not.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 5, 2011 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions
with the Packers becoming more pass-focused.
That did happen. The plan was to absolutely shut down the pass, knowing they would give up a few more rushing yards. I’d say it worked.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
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just cuz you're not dropping in coverage doesn't man you're rushing the passer
you can contain and make sure there’s no screen pass or QB run, you can cover the RB, but not actually drop in coverage, you can be a decoy and occupy blockers.
Just cuz he didn’t “drop into coverage” on 66 plays, doesn’t mean he was rushing the passer.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Re posted
I wouldnt connect Mathews being maybe average against the run to GBs LB having poor stop rate though. That can mostly be explained by the scheme considering the team used nickel as their base in many games. When you play six or seven in the box on early downs (when most teams play eight or seven) you are not going to have good run stop rates at any position
Winning
yea I dunno what the hell is going on with this
its like just cuz a guy’s highlights have him doing something means he doesnt’ do anything else.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Jun 28, 2011 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Course it doesn't exist, they don't have the personnel to do it now.
The Manning-McCourty interception is the only example I can think of over the last 3 years. But watch the 03-04 playoffs to see it in action.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 28, 2011 4:16 AM EDT up reply actions
instertscreenname!!!!!!
I think I found the one OLB in the entire NFL that could do all the things you say Belichick looks for. I might be wrong, but what about LaMarr Woodley?
He is 6’2’’, 265 pounds.
He is 26 years old, has played 4 seasons, and has 39 sacks in his career (double-digit sack seasons the last 3 years)
He has 140 solo tackles, 7 forced fumbles, 3 interceptions, and 12 passes defensed in his career as well.
Not only that, but the Patriots could (this would be a miracle) get him this offseason…I obviously don’t know all the details. I figured there had to be someone. Now I am not sure exacly what his pass coverage skills are, but the dude is obviously a monster pass-rusher, has the type of size, and plays for one of the best run defenses in the NFL in the Steelers. I don’t think we’ll ever find that perfect guy (seems impossible for anyone to match what Belichick wants) but this guy has to be as good as we can get.
I really want your thoughts. I am going to go over to BehindTheSteelCurtain to find out as much as I can about the guy
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 30, 2011 5:59 AM EDT up reply actions
He is pretty good in pass coverage but not great
He has a franchise tag on him so he won’t be available for you guys this year and all signs point to a long term deal getting done eventually.
My Seton Hall blog: http://thesetonhallblog.blogspot.com/
My Steelers blog: thenewsteelcurtain.blogspot.com
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by seton hall and steelers on Jun 30, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
they can still get him but it would take 2 1sts
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"
I don't think so. He signed the franchise tag
Doesn’t that mean he has to be a Steeler next year? I am not good with how these things work but would appreciate it if you could explain
My Seton Hall blog: http://thesetonhallblog.blogspot.com/
My Steelers blog: thenewsteelcurtain.blogspot.com
My Draft Blog: draftdatabase.wordpress.com
by seton hall and steelers on Jul 1, 2011 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh if he signed it then its too late hes a steeler.
If he didn’t sign it and he just got the tag then he can sign with another team and the other team will have to give up 2 1sts for him.
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"
ooh sorry
you said only 3 years out of 4 he got double digit sacks? Should’ve been 4.
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"
No to Woodley.
He’s the best fit of those Steeler-style LBs, but he’d be a $50 million contract guy. I doubt his ability to set the edge vs the run (I’d need to see footage of him steering a T or TE repeatedly)style too expensive to bring in, and then we’d have to change philosophy.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 4, 2011 5:07 AM EDT up reply actions
********
), so too expensive to bring in, and hen we might have to change philosophy. No point continuing with what we’ve Ben forced to do over the last couple of years, at twice the price.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 4, 2011 5:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Stupid iPad.
Been forced to do
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 4, 2011 5:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow you are so wrong
Woodley’s biggest strength is run coverage, he just happens to be a pass rusher as well. If he is not good enough for you and not multi-faceted enough for you, then nobody is.
My Seton Hall blog: http://thesetonhallblog.blogspot.com/
My Steelers blog: thenewsteelcurtain.blogspot.com
My Draft Blog: draftdatabase.wordpress.com
by seton hall and steelers on Jul 5, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Playing the run as a Steelers OLB is different to playing it as a Pats OLB.
I’d need to see more of him playing it in a Patriot manner before saying he’d be a good Patriots run-stopping OLB. Which he probably would be.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 5, 2011 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
No wonder why the Pats have horrible OLB's
If their head coach thinks like you do, the Pats will have horrible OLB’s as long as he coaches. How can you say that the best run-stopping 3-4 OLB in the game might not be good enough for you?
My Seton Hall blog: http://thesetonhallblog.blogspot.com/
My Steelers blog: thenewsteelcurtain.blogspot.com
My Draft Blog: draftdatabase.wordpress.com
by seton hall and steelers on Jul 6, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
They have flawed logic horribly flawed logic.
Like saying I wouldn’t go out with Megan Fox even though she makes a killer scrambled eggs but not the type of scrambled eggs that I like.
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"
also, toe-thumbs.
It’s like projecting a 4-3 DE into a 3-4 OLB. Sure, he looks good at what he’s doing, but you ask him to do something else (or do it a different way), and he might suck at it.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 6, 2011 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
He is already playing 3-4 OLB
all he would be doing is switching teams. If the best all around 3-4 OLB in the game is not good enough for the Pats, nobody is good enough for the Pats so if this is how Belicheat thinks, then Pats fans should get use to bad OLB play for as long as he is the coach
My Seton Hall blog: http://thesetonhallblog.blogspot.com/
My Steelers blog: thenewsteelcurtain.blogspot.com
My Draft Blog: draftdatabase.wordpress.com
by seton hall and steelers on Jul 6, 2011 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Because no player that ever left one team for another
turned out to be crap when asked to do a different thing. Right.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 7, 2011 5:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think that’s what he is saying. He is saying that typically a top player at his position can go to another team and will more than likely be successful. I hate the Steelers, but woodley is one of the top OLB’s in the league and could handle any scheme as a 3-4 OLB. If Patrick Willis switched teams no matter what they ask him to do he’s not going to suck or not fit. When you are an elite player who doesn’t only specialize in one thing and are playing the same position then they usually are alright no matter where they are at.
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
I said he probably could do it,
But no thanks to Woodley all the same. Plus he seems to be content to stay in Pittsburgh.
Adalius Thomas was supposed to be this great athletic linebacker who could do it all. Turns out that he was an excellent blitzer for the podophiliac, but couldn’t play OLB in New England. Or anywhere, seeing as he spent last year selling insurance.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 7, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
No risks no reward
get a guy that sucks at everything and he will still suck at everything
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"
WTF are you doing?????
R4F did something similar, he was banned from the entire SBN. You’re heading down the same path.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 27, 2011 3:02 AM EDT reply actions
I was asking a question to these nice people here at mockingthedraft
they answered respectfully to me and tried to offer reasons to why things were why I thought them. even if they disagreed, they were polite about it. I don’t know why you chose to come at me with some weird threat about something I am “doing?” and then mentioning someone I don’t know and then threatening me with a ban. I am new to this site and for whatever reason was not welcome at the patspulpit where you are from. why do you follow me here? these nice people were nice enough to even put my piece on the front-page. if you disagree with what I said why not say so?
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 27, 2011 3:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Mentioning others' quotes,
especially admins, and trying to get others to sound off on them, isn’t a smart decision.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 27, 2011 3:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I was referencing their opinions about the subject
because they know more about it than I do. I don’t know everything, which is why I was asking for people’s opinions. To learn from them is one of the best assets SBN gives. I wasn’t trying to make Comedic.Sans or SlotMachinePlayer look foolish, I was using their opinions because of their reputation (or as you said, their “admins”). If you would prefer I use your take on the subject then I will next time. You surely felt free to question me first before even commenting on this, so I believed you not to have an opinion about it for whatever reason. I still don’t know why you followed me over here.
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 27, 2011 5:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Picking the two admins who banned you and your other account(s) is a troll move.
There are 100 comments that aren’t yours on that post, all saying the guys we have now need to step up and become complete players, agreeing with the last line of Rich’s post:
Hopefully the players on the outside will become stronger and more sure tacklers over the summer and elevate the 3-4 linebackers to the heights required to make this defense elite.
Here’s one you can use for free:
Don’t know about being just a pass rusher away,
More an OLB. If we had one complete guy for one side (like AD was meant to be), we could get by with TBC/Ninkovich/Cunningham/Moore on the other, depending on what we expected. If Cunningham turns into a complete guy, maybe not LT, but a solid run stopper and pass rusher, then we can get by with a few guys on the other side. Having 3 or 4 specialists vs the pass and 2 vs the run, and constantly needing to rotate them in and out, can get you into trouble – see Spikes getting stuck in coverage vs the Jets.
Like Microsoft, that’s only good for 10 uses before it’s void and you have to pay $1500 for the license.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 27, 2011 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I wonder about you kind sir
I have not been told who banned me at patspulpit. It said to plead my case to an e-mail address I have yet to get any response from. How come you know so much about my ban? You aren’t an “admin”. Sharing my information is a violation of SBN rules. Don’t those “admins” know that. Whoever it is that you think I am I’d love to know because not once this whole time has anyone actually come out and said who they think I am. You call me R4F and threaten me with a ban? You follow me around When I am doing no harm to you? You dislike my opinion so you get me banned from your blog and then harass me elsewhere on SBN?
And because I chose 2 comments that FIT where my article was headed I am being a troll? I linked the entire story, people were free to look if they pleased. I didn’t know I was supposed every single comment from that story in my piece.
For some reason you dislike me, yet you won’t come out and say it. Is it because nobody will believe you? It sure isn’t because you don’t have enough time to follow me around.
If you have a problem with what I write, say so without these strange threats or I’ll just start flagging them as spam (or trolling?) because that is what they are becoming. Please stick to the issue, or the piece, and stop harassing me for reasons you aren’t willing to share.
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 27, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
When someone's articles disappear,
You ask someone else why.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 28, 2011 4:27 AM EDT up reply actions
so you know why my stuff was removed more than I do
this is just brilliant. all this because I was a little rude to that SlotMachinePlayer guy. I apologized and he accepted it, or so I thought.
Still doesn’t explain why you keep following me around. You know more about why my stuff was removed than I do. What do you want me to tell you? None of those “admins” will e-mail me back. Maybe you can go ask them for me and then relay the information. It’d get you a lot further than threatening me would.
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 28, 2011 5:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I commented here first,
Because my other comments need a few minutes of fact-checking before I post.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jun 27, 2011 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions
my point is this
IF the Pats had a dominant pass rusher, imagine how much better they would be
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Jun 29, 2011 5:25 PM EDT reply actions
they don't want to compromise the run lol
they laud Belichick yet doubt his ability to simply tweak a defense
"We talk football here, specifically the NFL and, more specifically, the New England Patriots."
"If you can’t treat others with respect, then you shouldn’t be commenting, period."
by statsare4losers on Jun 29, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
He has tweaked it.
We use a run stopping package and a pass rushing package. If we had an upgrade over Banta Cain, go for it.
But that’s not the ideal Belichick defense, he wants to have a group of guys capable of playing vs every offensive strategy. The Vrabels, the McGinests, the complete OLBs, instead of the pass rushers (Banta Cain and Matthews) and run stoppers and the risk of getting caught with the wrong set on the field.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Jul 4, 2011 5:12 AM EDT up reply actions
they might actually have a good defense
instead of one that prays Brady and the offense keep them off of the field
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
lol true
Bruce Carter+Sean Lee=BRUCE LEE!!!!
by Archie Barberio on Jun 30, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions

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