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Is RG3 the second best QB prospect since Peyton Manning?

Thirty five quarterbacks have been drafted in the first round since Peyton Manning was selected with the first pick in the 1998 draft.

It has universally accepted that Andrew Luck is the best quarterback prospect to come out since Manning, but is it possible Robert Griffin III is the second best?

Let's examine after the jump.

Star-divide

2011: Robert Griffin III : From 2010 to 2011 he increased his already impressive 67% completion rate to an amazing 72.4% (NCAA record is 76.7%) increased his passing yards from 3501 to 4293, and increased his passing TDs from 22 to 37.

Additionally, he decreased his interceptions from a minimal (eight) to a minuscule (six), in fact his 17 career interceptions (in 1,192 attempts) were 2 more than Matt Ryan had in just his senior year at Boston College.

Griffin most commonly is compared to Michael Vick (due height/weight/speed) but that's where the comparisons end. Playing in the conservative Virginia Tech "Beamer Ball" offense, Vick threw for only 3279 yards, and 21 TD during his college career, numbers Griffin surpassed in Baylor's first ten games this year.

Furthermore, there is no comparison between Cam Newton's 203 passing yards per game and RG3's 330.

An equal runner to Vick, Cam, and Vince Young, Griffin simply learned earlier to trust his arm: He has the NCAA record for the most consecutive pass attempts (209) without an interception at the start of an FBS career, and only threw 3 interceptions his freshman year. (843 yards and 13 TDs rushing as freshman were both career highs)

Griffin graduated from high school a semester early and began attending Baylor in the spring 2008 semester at 17 years old, then graduated from Baylor in three years (Dec. 2010) with a degree in political science. He has stated he wants to go to law school.

His time of 49.56 in the 400-meter hurdles ranks as the second-best ever by a high school runner, then as a true freshman he placed 11th in the U.S. Olympic Trials.

Lets examine the competition:

2010:

After Cam Newton's record breaking rookie year, it would be easy to forget all the reasons many not only thought he was undeserving of being the number one pick, but perhaps should not even be drafted in the first round. Despite being undefeated at three different colleges, having a rocket arm, and running for over 1400 yards during his Heisman-winning season, character concerns were so extreme that ProFootballWeekly's Nolan Nawrocki called Newton "Very disingenuous ... selfish, me-first makeup ... enormous ego with a sense of entitlement that continually invites trouble and makes him believe he is above the law...Only a one-year producer. Lacks accountability, focus and trustworthiness" in their draft preview guide. http://www.profootballweekly.com/2011/03/29/cam-newton-scouting-report

Additionally, he played in a simplified, run-first, dive-option read offense, and there were concerns about whether he could learn an NFL offense. Finally, he reportedly threw poorly at last years NFL combine. http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post?id=37939

The 2010 draft also saw Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, and Christian Ponder selected in the first round.

Jake Locker: Once thought of as the favorite to be the top pick in the draft (due to his combination of a strong-arm along with a 4.59 40 time), however Locker completed only 53.9 percent of his passes, and threw only 53 touchdowns compared to 35 interceptions over his four year career.

Christian Ponder was having a promising junior year until a series of injuries that sabataged the rest of his career at Florida State. (He suffered a shoulder injury to his throwing arm at the end of his junior season, and dealt with elbow injuries throughout his senior season as well as a mild concussion that knocked him out of a game)

Blaine Gabbert took over the reins of a high powered Missouri offense, but accomplished far less than the previous two Tiger starting QBs - Brad Smith and Chase Daniels. He had only 16 touchdowns his last year at Missouri (with nine interceptions), while Daniels had averaged 33 TDs from 2006 to 2008.

2009:

Before Sam Bradford won the 2009 NFL rookie of the year award, Bradford's had one of the best starts to a college career. His 36 touchdown passes in 2007 were the most ever by a freshman. Additionally, he led the nation as a freshman with a 176.53 passing efficiency rating. Furthermore, his 86 TDs are the most ever by a quarterback during his first two seasons (freshman/sophomore), surpassing the previous record by a whopping 31 TDs! He became only the third sophmore ever to win the Heisman Trophy. However, leading up to the draft, many thought Bradford was too fragile to give a 50 million guarenteed contract after a nasty shoulder injury that ended his junior season, NFL.com stated "Coming off shoulder injury on his throwing arm. Needs to add bulk to withstand the pounding at the next level. Uses a three-quarter delivery that may lead to batted balls. Has a tendency to hold on to the ball too long." Scouts openly questioned if BYU can knock him out for the season, how can he survive the pounding of the NFL: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/sam-bradford?id=497095

Tim Tebow: A Heisman Trophy winner and two-time national champion, Tebow was a polarizing pro-prospect. Although he set both single season and career records for most rushing touchdowns in the SEC (regardless of position), and ranked second in career passing efficiency and third in career yards per attempt (9.33) in NCAA history, many felt he would have great difficulty finding success as an NFL QB.

2009:

Matthew Stafford: Scouting reports raved "Stafford is a very good athlete with a huge arm. He makes those throws that just put people in awe. He has 3 years of starting experience in the SEC and in a Pro Style offense. He throws a great deep ball and knows how to throw balls to the back and corner of the endzone. Very NFL ready with excellent mechanics"

Truth be told, Stafford had only a solid -if unspectacular - junior season throwing for 3459 yards, a modest 25/10 TD/interception ratio, and 61.5% He would close out his collegiate career with 7,731 yards passing, and 51 TDs (33 interceptions). But it was his 57.2 career completion percentage that doubters would point to, with the belief that accuracy rarely improves in the pros. After all, this was not Kentucky, Boston College, Vanderbilt, Fresno State, or Utah. This was a Georgia team that was preseason ranked #1 in the country, and in addition to Stafford, had RB Knowshon Moreno, and WRs Mohammed Massaquoi and a then freshman AJ Green ( 56 catches for 963 yards and 8 touchdowns)

Mark Sanchez was considered the top quarterback in the nation upon the conclusion of his high school football career in 2005. While playing in USC's pro-style offense, Sanchez lead the 2007 Trojans to a 12-1 record before leaving school after his junior year. However, Sanchez only started one full season (16 total games) and despite great mobility, there were concerns about his dislocated knee-cap suffered in 2008.

Josh Freeman: As as three year starter at Kansas State, Freeman threw for a somewhat modest 8,078 yards and 44 touchdowns before Bucs coach Raheem Morris (who had been the defensive coordinator at K-State in 2006) drafted him.

2008:

Matt Ryan: Believed to have had a poor supporting cast at Boston College, Ryan compiled a 25-7 record as a starter for the Eagles, and as a senior, completed 59.3 % of his passes for 4507 yards and 31 TDs.

Selected 4th overall, Ryan was famously labeled as having "it" while appearing on the cover of Sporting News magazine. http://sportingnews.printstown.com/ProdDetail.aspx?prodId=33984

However, one analyst stated "19 interceptions in 14 games is unacceptable for a first round pick" and there were questions about his arm strength.

Joe Flacco: Unable to win the starting job at Pittsburg, Flacco transferred to the University of Delaware. In the 2007 season, Flacco led his team to an 8–3 regular season record while compiling over 3,300 yards, 18 touchdowns and only 5 interceptions. Thought to possess the strongest arm in a relatively weak draft class, Flacco was drafted with the 18th pick.

2007:

Jamarcus Russell: Russell parlayed rare size and arm strength for the position into being the #1 pick in the draft, but before then, he used those traits to convince head coach Les Miles to keep Matt Flynn on the bench for most of his LSU career. Russell threw for 3,129 yards, and a 28/8 TD/interception ratio as a junior, and finished his LSU career with a 21-4 record, including a 41-14 win over Brady Quinn's Notre Dame team.

Brady Quinn: Quinn was believed to be one of the most "pro-ready" QBs to come out in a long time, having been coached in Charlie Weiss's pro-style offense at Notre Dame, and finished the 2007 season with 3,426 yards on 289 completions out of 467 attempts for a completion percentage of 61.9% and 7.34 yards-per-attempt. He threw 37 touchdowns to only 7 interceptions. Quinn won 29 games as a starter at Notre Dame, while passing for 11,762 Yds and 95 TDs over his career. However, scouts questioned if Quinn maybe "maxed-out" with a low ceiling.

2006:

Vince Young: Forget about his disappointing NFL career. We are talking about Vince Young - the pro-prospect - the one we saw beat USC in the Rose Bowl. Texas entered the game 11-0, but USC entered the game on a 34 game win streak. In the 2006 Rose Bowl, Vince Young put on one of the most dominating individual performances in college football history, accounting for 467 yards of total offense = 200 rushing (10.5 yards per carry, and three touchdowns) and 267 passing (completing 30 of 40, zero sacks, zero interceptions) to lead the Longhorns to a thrilling 41–38 victory. Vince Young was the first player in NCAA I-A history to pass for 3,000 yards and rush for 1,000 yards in the same season. He ran for over 998 yards each of his three years at Texas. He had a win/loss record as a starter of 30–2. During his career at Texas (2003–05), Young passed for 6,040 yards and 44 TDs while rushing for 3,127 yards and 37 TDs.

A three year starter, he should have won the Heisman Trophy (winner = Reggie Bush eventually had his trophy stripped for accepting illegal benefits). Bigger and stronger than RG3, he simply is a better runner than passer, and a better athelete than QB.

Even after his Rose Bowl performance, some observers said he may have difficulty in the NFL because of his unorthodox sidearm throwing motion and the different style of play in the NFL

Matt Leinart: Most felt Leinart would have been the top pick in the 2005 draft (over Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers) when Leinart announced he would return for his senior year at USC. He was dating USC women's basketball player Brynn Cameron, and many felt that relationship was the reason for his return, as Leinart had already won both the 2004 Heisman Trophy as well as the 2004 National Championship.

Draft experts believed he had a good frame for a quarterback (6'-5”, 230 pounds), he was a remarkable 37–2 as a starter, and Leinart finished his college career with 807 completions on 1,245 attempts (64.8% completion percentage) for 10,693 yards and 99 touchdowns with just 23 interceptions.

Leinart not only couldn't repeat his Heisman Trophy win as a senior, but he lost to his own teammate. Reminiscent of the University of Miami's Ken Dorsey, some believed Leinarts lack of arm strength would be a detriment in his professional career. This forced scouts to consider the quality of talent surrounding Leinart on those USC teams, and question how important was Leinart in those wins.

Jay Cutler: Overlooked by many while starting 45 games at Vanderbilt, Cutler never missed a game due to injury. Cutler supporters pointed to how he single-handedly lead his overmatched team, while doubters pointed to his 5-27 record against SEC competition, and 11-35 record overall. Despite this, scouts and NFL analysts raved about Cutler's arm strength and toughness, while comparing him Brett Favre and his Southern Mississippi teams.

2005:

Alex Smith was selected with the first pick in the draft after putting Urban Meyers spread offense on a national stage. Smith had a 21-1 record as a starter, and threw only eight career interceptions despite having 587 attempts while at Utah. Intelligent both in the classroom and on the football field, he also proved to be very athletic (631 yds, 10 TDs rushing as a senior) a requirement in Meyers system. After the season, momentum steadily built, as he impressed first with a 4.7 40 time, then scored a 40 out of 50 on the wonderlic, and finally shined at his pro-day. Two inches taller, Smith overtook Aaron Rodgers who fell all the way to 24th.

Aaron Rodgers:

In the ’04 USC game, he completed his first 23 passes against the nation No. 1 team in the country to tie a NCAA single-game record. He finished the gameo 29 of 34 attempts for 267 yards, one TD and no picks for the afternoon, but they lost to the Trojans, 23-17.

For whatever reason, Rodgers draft stock dropped, perhaps suffering from the "Jeff Tedford theory" = prevailing wisdom was that Tedford's system was QB friendly, and made QBs look better than they really were. Crazy? Previous Tedford QBs include Trent Dilfer at Fresno State, Akili Smith and Joey Harrington at Oregon, and finally Kyle Boller at Cal. (He is rumored to have met Jamarcus Russell at a McDonalds once)

Jason Campbell: Campbell, named Southeastern Conference offensive player of the year, played for four different coordinators at Auburn and still had a career completion rate of 64.6% finding success in his senior year when he led the Tigers to an undefeated season in 2004.

2004:

Eli Manning Although his career numbers include 10,119 passing yards, 81 touchdown passes, and a passer rating of 137.7, the consensus was that while thought of as a certain future NFL starting QB, he was a step down from Peyton.

Sports Illustrated's pre-draft scouting report on Eli:

Deep throws lack speed and must improve his accuracy down the field. Lacks the quick set up or ability to immediately get the ball off on a three-step drop. Does not display the same pinpoint pass placement his brother did coming out of college. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2004/draft/players/32061.html

The 2004 draft also saw Phillip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, and JP Losman drafted in the first round.

Rivers finished as the second-leading passer in NCAA history with 13,484 yards and set an NCAA record with 51 career starts. His last season he led the NCAA with a 72% completion rate and 170.49 pass efficiency rating. A coaches son, Rivers had question about his delivery, a more three-quarters angled than classic over-the-top.

Roethlisberger: A three year starter at Miami of Ohio, as a redshirt freshman, Roethlisberger threw for over 3,100 yards. In 2002, he threw more than 3,200 yards, and in 2003, he threw more than 4,400 yards. A nice 65.5 % passer, with 10,829 yards and 80 touchdowns to his credit, Big Ben may have been undervalued due to playing at the "other Miami".

2003: Carson Palmer won the 2002 Heisman trophy his senior year at USC, where he had been a four year starter (45 starts), and finished with 11,388 career passing yards with 72 passing TDs.

Palmer had a breakout senior year under the tutelage of new offensive coordinator Norm Chow, he completed 309 of 489 passes for 3942 yards and 33 touchdowns with only 10 interceptions during the 2002 season. In addition to having the perfect build for an NFL QB, he was considered mature, a hard-worker, and used to the limelight while playing in LA.

Byron Leftwhich, Kyle Boller, and Rex Grossman were also drafted in the 2003 draft.

In his career at Marshall, Leftwich completed 939 of 1,442 passes (65.1 percent) for 11,903 yards, 89 touchdowns and 28 interceptions, but was best known for being carried by linemen after breaking his tibia and later returning to the game. Very slow of foot, even before the injury, Leftwhich also had an elongated wind-up throwing motion in college that he was never able to correct in the NFL.

2002:

David Carr was the first ever pick by the NFL's newest team - the Houston Texans. Prior to being selected with the first pick in the 2002 draft, Carr helped lead his Fresno State team to its best ranking ever. His senior year, Carr completed 64.5% of his passes for 4,830 yards. He threw 46 touchdowns versus 9 interceptions.

Scouting report: Carr has the size that the NFL is looking for in its quarterbacks. Carr has a strong and accurate arm with a quick delivery. Not only can he thread the needle with his throws, but he also knows how to put the proper touch on his passes when needed. He is very competitive and a natural leader who makes players around him better. Carr will be helped a lot by the fact that he has spent five years, two as a starter, in a pro-style offense. http://msn.foxsports.com/home/story/David-Carr-Scouting-Report

Joey Harrington and Patrick Ramsey were also drafted in the first round in 2002. During his senior season at Oregon, Harrington threw for 2,415 yards and 23 touchdowns, and he finished his college career with a 25-3 record.

2001:

Michael Vick lead his Virginia Tech team to an 11-0 regular season record and the National Championship game against Florida State as a freshman, while also leading the nation is passing efficiency - setting a record for a freshman (180.4), which was good enough for the third-highest all-time mark.

Vick left VT after his redshirt sophmore year with a reputation as being one of the fastest players in all of college football. Reported 40 times for Vick was 4.33. Combing a rocket arm with exceptional athletic ability, he was considered such an excellent prospect that Atlanta traded their first round and third round pick that year, a second round pick the following year, and WR Tim Dwight to move up from the 5th pick in order to draft him.

However, Vick threw for only 3279 yards, and 21 TD during his two years in college. Negative scounting reports stated "uncomfortable being in the limelight...Still needs to mature as a player...Sometimes gets too confident in his running skills, forgetting to eye his secondary receivers in order to run with the ball when his primary target is not available"

2000:

Chad Pennington was a Rhodes Scholar finalist. While playing QB at Marshall, he oversaw the University transition from Division 1-AA to Division 1-A in 1997, as Pennington formed an unstoppable combination with WR Randy Moss. His senior year (1999) featured Marshall having a 13-0 record. Pennington finished his career at Marshall with 1,026 of 1,619 completions for 13,423 yards and an almost too good to be true 115 touchdowns.

Note: Tom Brady was also drafted in the year 2000, but was thought of as such a poor pro-prospect that even the team that drafted him bypassed him six times (2nd of two 6th round picks).

1999:

Tim Couch : With more impressive statistics than Manning, while playing on an undermanned Kentucky team against the same touch SEC schedule, in 1998 he completed 71.5 % (430) of his 601 passes for 4611 yards and 38 TDs playing in Hal Mumme's new pass-oriented "Air Raid" offense. (Compared to Manning's 60.2 % for 3819 and 36 TDs). Couch still holds the NCAA record for completions per game with 36.4 during the 1998 season.

The 1999 draft also saw Donovan McNabb, Akili Smith, Daunte Culpepper, and Cade McNown go in the first round.

In a draft that saw QBs drafted with the first three picks, there was little arguement that Couch was the top prospect, as McNabb was more of a running QB at Syracuse, Smith was a "one-year wonder" (only 11 starts at the University of Oregon), Culpepper played against inferior competition at the University of Central Florida, and McNown had a weak arm.

McNabb started every game during his college career, winning 35 of 49 collegiate starts, and amassed more than 10,000 yards of offense, However, the Syracuse offense didn't resemble an NFL offense, which was more old school Nebraska than the spread-options seen in modern college football.

Pre-draft scouting report from ProFootball Weekly: Played in a freeze-option offense...Can still be a streaky and erratic passer...Tends to hold on to the ball too long and must learn when to unload...Played in a domed stadium in college and has not had to play in a lot of bad weather. Needs to work on his deep passing.

1998:

This is the year Manning was picked #1 over Ryan Leaf. He became Tennessee's all-time leading passer with 11,201 yards and 89 touchdowns and won 39 of 45 games as a starter, but four losses to SEC rival Florida lead some to believe Manning could not win the "big game", perhaps one of the reasons he also came in second to Charles Woodson in the Heisman voting.

Rarely have we seen someone so athletic, who can overcome the instinct to just take off and run. Blessed with the speed to rival Vick, a completion percentage that dwarfs Matthew Stafford, an interception rate that makes Matt Ryan look like a joke, and intelligence closer to Chad Pennington than Vince Young. He rose from dormancy the Baylor program in a similar way that Alex Smith, Jay Cutler, Tim Couch, David Carr, and others have.

There you have it, RG3 is the second best QB prospect to enter the NFL since Peyton Manning.

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Wow

I read down to 2003 before getting overwhelmed. Great article.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
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by John Stephens on Feb 1, 2012 3:44 PM EST reply actions  

Impressive article

I think Eli and Palmer were better prospects though

Kenny Powers is back!

by atlantalove on Feb 1, 2012 4:00 PM EST reply actions  

No.

Since Peyton, I have Big Ben as my best coming out of college, soon to be surpassed by Andrew Luck. RGIII, to be honest, isn’t really even in the conversation for me…

Erras.

by ejruiz on Feb 1, 2012 5:03 PM EST reply actions  

I would bet Cam Newton isn't on your list either

And yet here we are

True arrogance has been displayed here- WestministerRavensfan or something
Hi My name is Jack, why don't you help me off?

by WreckNTexan on Feb 2, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

He Wasn't, No.

I don’t think he was on many, either. The point is to look back at what we thought of them as prospects, and those are my tops. I also really liked Phillip Rivers (compared him to Farve), and didn’t like Eli Manning. What’s your point?

Erras.

by ejruiz on Feb 2, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe he's trying to emphasize the unpredictability of college QBs transitioning into the NFL

Elaborate on why he isn’t in the conversation for you. I wouldn’t dismiss a top prospect so easily. We’re just promoting discussion. That’s what these message boards are for.

by brightshinies on Feb 4, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

your comparing them as prospects coming out and you have Big Ben on top?

he was the 3rd QB in his draft class and wasnt even a top 10 pick, your logic is flawed

I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was

by pcroadrage on Feb 6, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2012/2/1/2763401/nfl-draft-giants-ben-roethlisberger-super-bowl

I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.

"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin

by Steel in FL on Feb 6, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

so the Giants had him #2

the Chargers had him #3 and the Steelers had no choice.

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Feb 6, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

For not having a choice we ended out better than the other 2

I'm getting tired of saying this: Dick LeBeau’s system is so complex very few rookies can make an impact.

"It would be tough for me to care less about their opinion, to be honest with you." Mike Tomlin

by Steel in FL on Feb 8, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

lol big ben?

Dear fox.... Fire Aikman and buck. they suck
Desean Jackson IS a punk....................UNLEASH Eli
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"If you come to a fork in the road, take it" -Yogi Berra
SBXVI Champs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I told YOU ALL... 5 months ago i was the only one who bELIeved, HELL YEA!!!!

by Lawrence Taylor The Real LT on Feb 6, 2012 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

good ish

and I 100% agree. Rec’d and keep up the good work man.

Turf Show Times writer and a proud rams fan.
"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for Tim Tebow to complete a pass against the Cover-2" - Jesus

by Josh Wehrle on Feb 1, 2012 5:44 PM EST reply actions  

The best quarterback coming out of college since Manning is Newton

He may have been looked at as boom or bust but the generally concensus was that if he meet his potiental he would be great. And the boom aspect of Newton has played out so it has too be Newton by a very large margin

Big Ben had a really good team around him and a top 3 defense. Historically no rookie quarterback in the modern day era of football has even had a winning record with a defense ranked lower than 8th in the league…. Panthers where 26th or lower for most of the season on defense.

The ideal that people try to use the “he just wins” statements is lazy because it doesn’t take into account all factors involved. >> defense >> special teams >> strength of schedule >> injuries >> weapons on offense >> running game. All of these factors play a major part. Example the Bengals down 17 to 7 vs the Titans went three and out 3 times in a row in the 2nd half of their game. If the Panthers did that they are on their way to getting blown out. Yet the Bengals defense held the Titans to 5 drives in the 2nd half alone of 8 yards or less. This basically gives your offense a mulligan. A Luxury Newton did not have.

When NFL teams look at prospects like fans do then you see a team that will fail because it is our job as fans to get caught up in the media hyperbole not the NFL management. And anyone that is a evaluator should have seen Newtons potiental. A potiental he is proving to meet so far which to me make him the unquestionable pick as “best rookie quarterback since manning”… and also the best prospect as well if you didn’t buy alot of the media BS. And it doesn’t make it valid because people repeat something over and over and over. That makes it propaganda

.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 1, 2012 6:28 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

strongly disagree with your contention that Newton is best coming out of college since Manning

to be considered the best, you’d really have to lack questions and definitely not be questioned as a one year wonder. My vote probably goes to Stafford, who I thought was pretty damn good. the low accuracy rating for some reason didn’t seem too concerning

by vitzeng on Feb 1, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

to be considered the best, you’d really have to lack questions

Some of the on field questions are baseless. That is simply media driven BS. All of them are wrong… every single one of them. So based on their opinions he would be a flawed prospect. But again few did project him to be a star. All of these baseless cliche go to slogans that everyone repeated >> not playing under center >> running a spread >> Simple reads. Even the John Gruden piece feed into the average fan that doesn’t know anything about football. Feeding ignorance and bais. NO one bothered to call Gruden out on his play call he made except keyshawn Johnson who asked him why he called a audible with 4 hott routes. A play from Tampa’s offense that even Keyshawn said they hardly ever put that much verbage into a audible. NOOO body but people that knew that playbook would have known what he was talking about. And if you think for a second that Payton Manning or Tom Brady would have instantly known what Gruden was calling (unless they knew that system) then your just lumping yourselfs into that big pile of fans that have no clue. This is the type of “question marks” Newton had. Charater assults from people like Charle Casserly saying Newton won’t make it because this isn’t a “punt pass or kick comptition”. So if your going by the word of these people then of course you would say that.

I saw something different and for the VERY reasons i said he would excel and that he was more pro ready than anyone expected…. pocket awareness and responds to pressure. For those that think on their own and don’t take the opinions of others you can see the truth like night and day.

I love Stafford i am a hugh Lion fan. But that doesn’t take away from truth. That based on first years Newton played very well. Stafford had one really good game verse Cleveland in week 9 of 2009. But Newton matched that on his first game yardage wise. Stafford is in his 3rd year. IF Newton is this good in his first year after 6 weeks of training camp just imagine what he could be by his 3rd year while they build around him like Detroit did Stafford. It is totally unfair to compare these two. But coming in as a rookie prospect Newton has far exceeded Stafford as a first year player…. Newton is never on a injury report.

One year wonder is a phrase people throw around to illistrate trust in a player because of lack of playing time. The upside of Newton is what warrented a first overall selection. The potiental is why the Panthers could not pass on him. And he is living up to that upside and that upside is higher than anyone that has come into the NFL since Payton Manning… You can’t even look yourself in the mirror and think Andrew Luck is going to throw for 4000 yards as a rookie.. so as a prospect it is impossible to say anyone was a better prospect than the guy who played pretty much just like he just left off of at Auburn.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 1, 2012 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder if you're thinking I'm saying Luck will be a better rookie

I’d highly doubt that he has a statistically better year than Cam, I’m just saying as a prospect out of college, I don’t think Cam was the next best. Though he has proved himself to be a magnificent player, the many questions surrounding him (like the offense he was in and his throwing motion) cannot be erased by his performance in the NFL. Everyone could recognize the potential but i nterms of pure evaluation, if it had come down to Cam Newton and Stafford in a draft, I’d go Stafford. In terms of NFL career, Cam’s the obvious winner

by vitzeng on Feb 2, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Though he has proved himself to be a magnificent player, the many questions surrounding him (like the offense he was in and his throwing motion) cannot be erased by his performance in the NFL

And here lies the root of the issue i have. The evaluations made pri draft on Newton are alot of hog wash. The evaluations are lazy and off base. This is what is said about Newton pri draft. Now how is it that a fan can get it right and they pro scouts can’t? How could i have been so DEAD ON with this prospect but the pro scouts that said he is more suited for “punt pass or kick” have any valid credit applied to their evaluations of him? How can you give them credit by even acknowledging any of the things that where said about him on the field?Because i am not bais and i looked at what really matters and that is pocket presence and ability to project the football and decision making. All of these other chiche that the “experts” have said are BS…. like broke record.

-Ran a spread offense (even tho Drew Brees ran a spread.. even tho 3 of the top 5 rookies in NFL history ran spread offense)
-Is a outstanding athlete ( as if this is some type of negative)
-looks to run before he looks to pass (even tho that is total misinformation… even this year Aaron Rodgers scrambled during pass plays 9 more times than Newton. And at Auburn Newton only scrambled 43 times in 14 games… polar opposite of the media spin)
-throws to wide open recievers (as if no one here has eye balls and can’t see all of the completely uncovered recievers Luck is throwing too. And that is fact you see guys with no defender within 10 yards watching Stanford play)
-Can’t read a defence (even tho that is more misinformation.. because the truth is he didn’t display that he could read a NFL defense. And in what bizzaro world has any rookie proven that?)

It is all the same hyperbole of misinformation that fans fall for and now you validate even though it has been proven wrong!!! Even though my opinion he is the best prospect since Manning how is it possible that i could have nailed his evaluation too a the letter? I didn’t look at this player like the NFL scouts are by repeating the same old cliche.. i mean once you start talking about facts and not subjective opinions alot of these BS evaluations are dispelled.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

your arguments preclude the possibility that I made those conclusions myself

and they exclude the possibility that Cam Newton improved upon entering the NFL. I determined that his throwing motion would have to worked on, and like any good rookie, he worked on it and has since improved. There’s of course going to be criticisms that a lot of people disagree on, but some have consensus agreement.

by vitzeng on Feb 3, 2012 1:55 AM EST up reply actions  

i hear you

it was just my opinion that his throwing motion was perfect. That his feet was and is his current issue. So i disagreed with those pre-draft negatives. While i did disagree for other reasons i felt that all of them overlooked his real weakness… and that is consistant setting up his feet and too me that is something no one talked about. So i did have my complaints about him but no one really talked about that. Kinda makes me feel like there was just tons of lazy evaluations with him.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 3, 2012 3:05 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Newton was not a one year wonder

When you objectively take into account his Blinn College performance. It is football, just played at a lower level.

by Ravens One on Feb 12, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

On point
The ideal that people try to use the "he just wins" statements is lazy because it doesn’t take into account all factors involved. >> defense >> special teams >> strength of schedule >> injuries >> weapons on offense >> running game. All of these factors play a major part. Example the Bengals down 17 to 7 vs the Titans went three and out 3 times in a row in the 2nd half of their game. If the Panthers did that they are on their way to getting blown out. Yet the Bengals defense held the Titans to 5 drives in the 2nd half alone of 8 yards or less. This basically gives your offense a mulligan. A Luxury Newton did not have.

This is terrific analysis that proves a point.

by Ravens One on Feb 12, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It pains me that people get their opinions from a scouting report... that is someone elses opinion... and these experts aren't right even 50% of the time.

Too many people are caught up in the hype of Andrew Luck without evaluating him on tape. Don’t get me wrong i think Luck should be the number one pick. But that is only because of the hype and pressure a GM will be under if the dare to select someone other than him number 1.

Andrew Luck doesn’t respond to pressure very well and the NFL is defined by quarterbacks that play well because of their traits vs pressure. Luck has only be sacked 23 times in his career at Standord and that credit goes to their Offensive Line which had 2 offensive linemen ranked in the top 10 to 15 players in this upcoming draft. Cam Newton was sacked 23 times in one year at Auburn playing against SEC teams.

Pressure

The defining reason why i like RG3 over Luck is because of Griffin’s responds to pressure. He was sacked 79 times in college compared to Lucks 23. Yet with all those sacks and the fact that RG3 threw the ball 128 MORE times than Luck. Griffin only has 17 interceptions compared to Lucks 23. That got me thinking… So RG3 in a pass oriented offense on a terrible team that relied on his arm he threws more get sacks more deals with more pressure yet hardly turns to ball over… Luck playing in a run oriented scheme throws less but throws more interceptions verse less pressure (facepalm.. how in the world can anyone not see this?) And we aren’t just talking about stats look at game snaps and you see RG3 dealing with pass rushers coming like he has only 4 offensive linemen in the game and Luck is at the totally other extreme where you can’t even find a defensive playing on the screen near him during most of his passes.

People said that David Carr was shell shocked. But don’t think that is the proper context of what really happened. NFL pressure is different that college pressure. In the NFL you get pressure once your back foot is planted against decent teams and above. In college David Carr stood back in the pocket like it was practice or a 7 or 7 drill…. Same thing with Joey Harrington… Same thing with Alex Smith. These guys looked great in college verse weak defenses with no pressure in their face. But in the NFL it is a totally and completely different game.

This is what leads me to believe the ideal of “NFL ready quarterback” is totally screwed up.

You hear the normal cliche football terms thrown around
- ran a pro style offense
- calls plays at the line
- isn’t a athlete (because in our bizarro world of quarterback evaluations we think the ability to run equals that they will run. Just like if Payton Manning had 4.3 speed he would run all day instead of process his reads)

Andrew Luck will be good because he makes good choices with the football. And is very smart and has been around the game building to play in the Natonal stage. But don’t for a second believe any of that has to do with instincts. And instinctively in the pocket vs pressure he is suspect. The best quarterbacks in the NFL right now are all calm in the pocket and make good choices more times than not even with pressure. This is by far RG3 greatest asset too his game. A major reason why he could carry a team with less talent. Not because he can run really fast… but because he reacts calmly too people in his face and use to a crowded pocket… Truth is RG3 will likely see less pressure playing behind Washington or Miami’s offensive line than he did at Baylor ( the school that averaged one conference win a year before RG3)

So too me if you remove all of the hype and dump your memory banks of who is hyped up and who isn’t. You really are left with Newton as the best quarterback prospect since manning. And as for this year i think RG3 is the most NFL ready by a large margin because of his instincts in the pocket and ability to make the players around him better (now everyone thinks Baylor has a bunch of first round to mid round reciever propsects all because of the quarterback play). Luck has Ryan Welden(6th round pick for the Bengals) and Doug Baldin (Seahawks leading reciever) But Luck didn’t make those guys stand out…. just saying there are patterns here that can’t be ignored. And the cliche “NFL ready” comments don’t even hold water considering the history of who is playing well in the League.

Cam Newton
Andy Dalton
Sam Bradford

Three of the top 5 rookie quarterbacks all time all came from spread offenses.. Dalton and Newton both came from spread offense. Drew Brees also came from a spread. There is absolutely NOOO merit the concept of a college quarterbacks “system” playing a role in success……. WHAT does play a role is what the of throws. As the NFL’s fear of drafting spread quarterbacks stem from Andre Ware and David Klingler who ding and dunked their way to massive yardage totallys in their run and shoot offenses

by Shankdiddy on Feb 1, 2012 6:30 PM EST reply actions   3 recs

I would put RGIII in the top five

But second best? I can’t agree. I’d say Cam takes that.

"What do you want to say to those critics now?"
"Just sit back and watch the show." -Cam Newton

by Smitty89 on Feb 1, 2012 8:38 PM EST reply actions  

You convinced me.

There's no way Khloe's a Kardashian. No frickin' way.

by Agent Jerry Fletcher on Feb 1, 2012 8:41 PM EST reply actions  

bahahaha

no hes not, good article though

Cold Blooded

by Jaggaholic82 on Feb 1, 2012 8:50 PM EST reply actions  

I can hardly believe this

Largely because Griffin is being so hyped despite having serious (I’m talking real serious, not just small stuff) issue with his game. Between size and muscle mass, inability to call plays or read defenses, and inexperience I can hardly believe he’s being this pumped up. Just going back 5 years I’d rank him behind Newton, Bradford, and Stafford and possibly Young and Leinart. If you go further back the list gets even longer, especially with the 2004 and Palmer and Couch. Looking at Griffen’s career, and not just the highlights, shows more of the type of player he is. Is he a 1st round QB in this weak QB class, yes, but is he a top tier talent at a pro level, I’d say he’s got a long way to go there.

I’m sorry, when a QB has limited experience, underwhelming size and strength, and limited football understanding (football IQ, calling plays at the line, reading defenses) it’s hard for me to label him best QB prospect since anyone. Am I saying he’ll fail, no not at all, I’m just saying fans who buy into hype and just read what the occasional draft guru says rather than actually watching the film needs to zoom out, take a breath and put things in context. I think you tried to do that, instead you really made me more convinced he isn’t a top prospect.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Feb 2, 2012 12:50 AM EST reply actions  

Fans are indeed caught up in hype. And it isn't RG3 who is hyped up

Andrew Lucks evaluation process stopped for fans 18 months ago. Fans look at him as the next great quarterback. But NFL teams continue the evaluation process unlike us fans who have already crowd Luck the best without question.

All of these mocks on this sight generally start off with some comment about the first pick saying

“1 is Andrew Luck do i really need to explain why?”

“No brainer pick”

“We all know who is the pick here”

Now don’t get me wrong if i am a NFL GM i am Likely going to put in my card for Andrew Luck. But i think as the draft process continues this will turn into a finer line than many may think for alot of teams. As a GM of a team selecting number 1 you almost have to pick Luck because of the hype. And because of job security if you gamble on the higher ceiling in RG3. Colts did it before drafting Edge over Ricky Williams and that hugh hype train. But this is quarterback and their future HOF qb is likely ending his career with the Colts this off season.

With all of that being said…..

I can hardly believe this
Largely because Griffin is being so hyped despite having serious (I’m talking real serious, not just small stuff)

Serious issues? hmm what? For the record Andrew Luck is the quarterback that is getting the biggest hype in just about NFL history from fans and media…. RG3 is getting some attention because of what he is as a player and the fact that Griffin is the best instinctively passing quarterback of this mold to ever come into the NFL. It is possible that he runs a 4.4 to 4.3 40 yard dash time during the combine. So if you think the hype is bad now wait till after he destroys the combine.

I have a issue with the tone of your comment because you clearly don’t know much about RG3. OR the fact that none of your cliche issues you brung up have ever been a reason why one quarterback has failed. And rarely has it been the major difference between one quarterback or another based on system.

First off everyone talks about Payton Manning changing the plays and audibles etc etc. But the context of that is greater than him just changing the plays. The Colts used a no huddle and personel match ups too keep teams on the field. This required that he stand at the Line and change plays and get into the proper play. This is something you do with a veteran quarterback not a rookie. As Manning wasn’t doing that in his first few seasons. The mold of this type of attack was really perfected by the Buffalo Bills who under the leadership of Jiim Kelly (a veteran quarterback .. get the theme here) The stayed in their "K gun " offense all game and did not huddle and Jim Kelly called the plays and audibled constantly.

Just to clear this up regardless of what Luck or Griffin did in college neither are going to come in running a attack no huddle offense right off the back. Historically you don’t run this type of offense with a rookie quarterback or a young quarterback. Not until he has had serveral years under their belt running the offense.

It really feels like your insulting RG3 to say he isn’t intelligent enough to get a grasp of this. Football really isn’t that hard to figure out like some fans to try to make it sound. Yes defenses will cat and mouse and show different looks. But in the end all your doing is looking for match ups and counting how many defenders in the box. Kids do that on a video game. And i know it isn’t Madden i am not trying to insult your intelligence.. but on most levels it really isn’t rocket science. It is about excution. And this is the root of what i see as a issue.

RG3 will be just fine reading a defense. Reading a defense is more than just reading a safety or counting how many defenders in the box. It is having the natural ability to trust your arm and deliever with good ball placement. And i am not sure if you have seen the tape but RG3 has special ball placement deep middle and short….. all while playing under alot more pressure than Luck.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 4:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree Luck is overhyped as well

But if you watch Griffin play and read about how that offense worked, it’s obvious he is hardly a can’t-miss prospect. Like I said, that doesn’t mean he’ll fail or anything, just from watching him and what I’ve studied about how he “ran” that offense, I’m not sold on him.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Feb 2, 2012 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Clearly you're a huge RG3 fan

You may have a deeper knowledge of him as a QB than, say, someone who hasn’t been watching as intently. That doesn’t mean you need to take offense when someone questions his ability to transition to the NFL. As far as I’m concerned, NFL draft prospects are like the US legal system: ‘guilty until proven innocent’. No one should be given the benefit of the doubt coming into the big leagues. Even RG3. Its natural to speculate over the particulars. That’s what ‘Mocking the Draft’ is for. No one is insulting anybody by debating athletic ability, or the ability to transition into the NFL.

by brightshinies on Feb 4, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

that really wasn't what i was concerned with ( by the way i use quote boxes as much as i do because i am trying to clearly define what aspect of a posters comment i am refering too..not to prove any points)... just trying to help in the conversation.
You may have a deeper knowledge of him as a QB than, say, someone who hasn’t been watching as intently. That doesn’t mean you need to take offense when someone questions his ability to transition to the NFL

i don’t have a dog in that race really. I am not so much of a RG3 fan as much as i am a myth buster. It goes or any player regardless of position. I get really caught up into some of the cliche / myths … its a trap

That doesn’t mean you need to take offense when someone questions his ability to transition to the NFL. As far as I’m concerned, NFL draft prospects are like the US legal system: ‘guilty until proven innocent’. No one should be given the benefit of the doubt coming into the big leagues

Oh no i am not upset at someones references too him. Again i get into dispelling myths about players good or bad. That draws me in when sometimes i see subjective information turn into facts and real facts are ignored. so i love to debate those facts

I Iike RG3 as a prospect because after looking at him on film and stats it became foggy to me as too why he isn’t considered closer to Andrew Luck as a prospect. It is my opinion that he could be better and that the line between both is very thin.

No one is insulting anybody by debating athletic ability, or the ability to transition into the NFL.

That reference to me feeling insulted related to the above poster saying that i rely on highlights and scouting reports. I have been the one person that has jumped and down on that soap box about fans not falling for propaganda that you can get sucked up into with scouting reports.

I felt insulted because that poster kept saying that this is what i was doing. Not realizing i have watched every snap of both of these players ( most snaps minus a few games i could not watch like Baylor vs Kansas or Stanford vs San Joe State) I did get a chance to see game situations and down and distance and situational football and progression over the course of a few seasons….. NOT just looking at a piece of paper saying “he can run real fast”…. so that kinda did tick me off because it felt like the entire misinformation campain that Newton went through.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 4, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Between size and muscle mass, inability to call plays or read defenses, and inexperience I can hardly believe he’s being this pumped up

he is getting talked about because he is really good. He is also the same size as Matthew Stafford minus 10 Lbs…. And bigger than Steve Young by 5 lbs all 3 quarterbacks are 6’2". Size is hardly a issue nor is it a " I’m talking real serious, not just small stuff"

How is it physically possible for RG3 too have better stats than Luck yet RG3 can’t read a defense? This sounds like what people said about Newton last year. And even though i do believe Newton still strugges with some reads he was a rookie and the best rookie all time production wise…..absolutely no merit too this statement at all. You don’t have more TD than incomplete passes 4 games into the season regardless of who you play on any level if you don’t have a natural feel for throwing the football making decisions and ball placement. And its not just dump off passes it is high degree of difficulty throws down field that he dropped in covered recievers hands like layups.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 4:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with everything you have said and cant really say anymore because you have said it.
Over next two years Luck will possibly be the better of the two. After 10 years RGIII I believe will be in top 5 QB ever consideration.

"The Holy Writ of Gloucester Rugby Club demands: first, that the forwards shall win the ball; second, that the forwards shall keep the ball; and third, the backs shall buy the beer." - Doug Ibbotson

by SteveUK on Feb 2, 2012 4:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with everything you have said and cant really say anymore because you have said it.
Over next two years Luck will possibly be the better of the two. After 10 years RGIII I believe will be in top 5 QB ever consideration.

i am not sure about predicting the future. But i do think that there are alot of follower mentality when it comes to sports. So many people that just listen to “experts” when they are wrong more than half the time.

The root of my issues with this hype is how the evaluation process stopped in the eyes on the fans. And the NFL hasn’t stopped. And if they are looking at the same tape i am there are going to be teams that say “hold up wait a minute something doesn’t add up”

What sucks about any debate where someone disagrees with popular opinion is alot insults and cliche thrown around. When there is truths on both sides.. i just feel like in order to be a special quarterback it starts with pocket skills and RG3 is special in that department … and Andrew Luck is suspect in my opinion based on tape..not based on reading someone elses opinion off of a scouting report.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 5:01 AM EST up reply actions  

fair point on predicting the future.

people should learn to trust their eyes a lot more than they do especially as there is so much written on the subject.

you should put all your comments into a post. will be easier to read and make a very good article

"The Holy Writ of Gloucester Rugby Club demands: first, that the forwards shall win the ball; second, that the forwards shall keep the ball; and third, the backs shall buy the beer." - Doug Ibbotson

by SteveUK on Feb 2, 2012 6:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with this 100%. The Andrew Luck hype train has gotten a bit out of control.

I feel bad for the kid, considering he’s practically expected to be a developed Peyton Manning from day one (exaggeration, I know).

by brightshinies on Feb 4, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Top 5 QBs ever? Wow. That’s a bit much.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
Follow me on Twitter

by John Stephens on Feb 3, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

well you can say you heard it here first!!!

"The Holy Writ of Gloucester Rugby Club demands: first, that the forwards shall win the ball; second, that the forwards shall keep the ball; and third, the backs shall buy the beer." - Doug Ibbotson

by SteveUK on Feb 3, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

So you think he will either pass or be in the same conversation with

Manning, Favre, Brady, Unitas, Montana, Marino, Elway, Bradshaw, Young, Graham, etc.

I’m sorry, but I find that EXTREMELY unlikely…

by Yankees10 on Feb 3, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

No one in this draft class should be compared to HOF quarterbacks thats just silly
So you think he will either pass or be in the same conversation with
Manning, Favre, Brady, Unitas, Montana, Marino, Elway, Bradshaw, Young, Graham, etc.
I’m sorry, but I find that EXTREMELY unlikely…

My position is neither Luck Nor Griffin. The reason why i think that is i feel RG3 is a better quarterback. Yet people arent afraid to say Luck could be put into this conversation. I don’t tend to agree because i don’t think Luck is even the best quarterback in this draft class.

So yes i feel Griffin is going to be really good it is flatout stupid to try to compare a rookie who hasn’t played a down to HOF quarterbacks. And i find that too be the same comparing luck or Griffin to any HOF quarterbacks….. thats all coming from the ESPN hype machine that can’t even get the normal draft projections right… good Job on them projecting Blaine Gabbert to be a better quarterback than Newton…sigh.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 3, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

You must have your sizes off

Griffin is listed at 6’2" but people who actually play with him say he’s more like 6’. Add in Stafford is 6’3" and Steve Young is 6’2" and during his playing days was heavier, I’m not sure where you are getting your info from. Oh and college stats are pretty meaningless. That is why there is a disconnect for the casual fan between the best college player and the best NFL ready QB. in 2010 Luck wasn’t the best college QB, but he was easily the best QB in terms of NFL potential and readiness. Same for this season, fans who only look at stats and don’t understand the differences between college and the NFL and who ignore the actual games can say Griffin is better than Luck or other top prospects of the past decade.

The more research that is actually done does wonders when it comes to understanding, I encourage it.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Feb 2, 2012 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

i have my size mixed up?...sigh. See this is the problem your deal with the media perception and continued propaganda
Griffin is listed at 6’2" but people who actually play with him say he’s more like 6’.

do you have any links too these comments? Do you have any thing to support this? Sounds like some of the made up stuff that was said about Cam Newton that had no references or names to point too. Or are you saying your a Baylor player? Just where can i read these type of comments? I have read them before on blogs from fans. But where in real life has anyone said this other than fans?

Matthew Stafford is 6’2" NFL.com and ESPN

You will find out more about how big RG3 is at the combine offically. As i don’t just make up stuff i look at facts. And fact is the home teams sites always embellish height weight historically.

RG3 doesn’t look short too me in every interview i see he is the tallest guy there. Just seems like perception by some people more than it is reality. But we will see offically at teh combine

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

You are saying I'm messed up by the media?

Funny considering many in the media are saying Griffin might be better than Luck, well mostly the guys who don’t do draft stuff are saying that. As for Griffin’s size, yea I do, but at this point, it’s obvious Griffin could tell you that you are wrong and it wouldn’t matter, so nothing I say will matter.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Feb 2, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

As for Griffin’s size, yea I do, but at this point, it’s obvious Griffin could tell you that you are wrong and it wouldn’t matter, so nothing I say will matter

don’t feel defeated just provide the links and the sourse of this information. From these teammates or coaches or whoever that said he is really 6 foot tall. It is hardly out of the question too ask that. Just seems like alot of people made these type of statements without any accountability for them pre draft for Newton and i am hearing things "like this " about Robert Griffin. Makes me wonder where these type of “facts” come from.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

At 6’ 2’’ he’s the tallest guy there?

i am just referencing him standing in a interview setting lol. He seems fairly tall. i am 6 foot ( 72 INCHES) and he looks taller than me for sure.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 4, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Young is 6’2" and during his playing days was heavier, I’m not sure where you are getting your info from.

i am providing links to just about every stat i talk about lol.. what?

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I felt like i had a really good feel for evaluations of quarterbacks. By the way i really want a job in scouting that what be so sweet
Just going back 5 years I’d rank him behind Newton, Bradford, and Stafford and possibly Young and Leinart. If you go further back the list gets even longer, especially with the 2004 and Palmer and Couch. Looking at Griffen’s career

The number one skill set of any quarterback is pocket skills. IF you have the ability to do the following you have a chance to be good

-ignore bodies around you and staying on balance remaining composed and calm even in a quarterbacks body langage while all heck is breaking lose around you
-step up in the pocket and slide in the pocket maintaining focus down field
-feel the rush and NOT look at the rush
- (bonus) have the ability to extend the play
- (bonus) have the ability to make plays with your legs

Luck has been standing back in the pocket with no pressure for 3 years of football. In a offense geared to run the ball. With a offensive Line that is literally better than some pro offensive lines currently. Getting sacked 23 times in his career. But verse good teams that has athletes like USC and Oregan he struggled when he was pressured. I don’t see Luck excelling at any of these traits. I think he is fairly good in some but doesn’t excel any any of these traits. And please look at the film of Luck and watch a quarterback who is standing back there like it is a 7 on 7 drill with no pressure.

RG3 excels at all 5 of these traits which is the REASON he is so valued. NOT because he can run really fast…. but the thing that puts him over the top is ….

- special ball placement on deep passes
- good decision making with the football (this transends offensive systems regardless)
- clutch during key moments of big games

Luck has good ball placement yet nothing really special about his ball placement. There aren’t any wow throws. Infact i found that after looking at him that many of his recievers are just wide open. That isn’t his fault but still i don’t see any throws that make me go “wow”. Just a bunch of “hmm ok well he was open”. Even in the Bowl game vs OSU he has no pressure all night and on those TD passes i could not think of anyone in the NFL besides Tim Tebow who would have missed on those throws.. every teams 3rd string quarterback could have thrown it.. heck alot of us could have thrown it.

If you are really honest and stop reading a scouting report fellow fans you see a quarterback in Andrew Luck who has no one in his face and once he is pressured he makes mistakes or takes off and runs.. and that is only going to get worse with the Colts with no running game a defense built to play with leads Manning gave them and no possible defection of Reggie Wayne. I just see alot of dink and dunk with no “specail plays”.. infact you can’t identify a single play all season that makes you say “wow that guy is great”… just saying that is the truth

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 4:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Looks like you just keep commenting

I’d agree that pocket skills are a key component in evaluating a player, and after watching Griffin for 3 years, I’d say he’s average in the pocket, and take away his elite speed, he wouldn’t be here. I’d disagree with saying his ball placement is “special,” especially deep, he has the arm strength to make most passes, but deep passes, especially across the middle, he struggles due to a slow release. As for good decision making, I’d say it’s clear his decision making is solid, though not great, he will usually make the right read, but if forced he struggles and often throws into coverage.

It’s fine we disagree, but don’t base your opinion of players on what people who don’t know what they are talking about are saying, read ALL the reports and actually do your own research and watch a lot of games, it will really help you understand a players pros and cons.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Feb 2, 2012 9:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I’d agree that pocket skills are a key component in evaluating a player, and after watching Griffin for 3 years, I’d say he’s average in the pocket, and take away his elite speed, he wouldn’t be here.

let me get this straight.. you think how fast he runs has anything to do with his pocket skills? So you totally ignore the fact that RG3 is dealing with more pressure and that he has been more productive in the face of that pressure? This is pretty undeniable fact here. You don’t see Luck making this throw under pressure because no one is in his face and when he does have pressure like this he has been mistake prone

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Scouts who rely on the media and highlight reels make bad scouts

But hey, like I said above, God could disagree with you and it wouldn’t matter.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Feb 2, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

But hey, like I said above, God could disagree with you and it wouldn’t matter.

Now your getting abit extreme. I addressed the comments you made. It just seems like when this debate is brung up i hear alot of subjective comments with very little facts.

I don’t buy into the media spin and i have been the one that has stood by watching the games for a good perspective… game clock …down and distance… level of competition. .. Key moments of Key games. All of these things are factors that you can miss in a scouting report.

Highlight reels? really? sigh… This is the internet age you can watch every snap of every game if you look for it…sigh. Not to meantion direct TV… of which i have. Not gonna lie i could not watch all of the games but i have been able to revisit every snap on my own.

It just pains me to listen to some fans that ultimately their stance is “just because”

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

agreeing with what someone in the media said

does not constitute buying into media spin. anyone can make conclusions on their own by watching gametape and come up with a separate/equal conclusion

by vitzeng on Feb 3, 2012 1:57 AM EST up reply actions  

i agree and disagree
agreeing with what someone in the media said
does not constitute buying into media spin. anyone can make conclusions on their own by watching gametape and come up with a separate/equal conclusion

The issue is the evaluation process stopped for Andrew Luck 18 months ago. As you have noticed most Mocks start off stating Andrew Lucks as the Number one pick and in the description they all have one liners like “do i have to explain this ?” or " no brainer pick here". And don’t get me wrong i do think he should be the favorite to be picked number 1 but i think it is by a smaller margin than most project…and would not consider the selection of Robert Griffin over him to be a reach.

The issue with this statement is that when 100% of these mocks say the samething and EVERYONE has stopped evaluating Luck. Then it is a problem. Because Andrew Luck simply has not faced much pressure. (Luck vs USC every play). This is the most pressure he had seen in that season to date and it isn’t much. Yet you can see a glaring weakness verse pressure. Now what in the world is he going to do verse this type of NFL pressure There is a CLEAR difference between the type of pressure Luck has seen in college and the NFL.

Propaganda may not be the proper phrase… but there are elements too it present. Like his greatness repeated over and over and over till it is fact. While some fans may not conclude that he is good via their own research MOST don’t fall into that category. Most are those that have read it over and over and over so it must be fact.

Tape doesn’t like (not talking about highlights but watching game tape … situational football… etc etc) there are signs that he isn’t this future HOF. But a soon to be very good player..

I see Chris Chandler when i look at Andrew Luck. Only Chandler had a bigger arm and alittle bit better ball placement. Only time will tell how Andrew lucks skill sets from the Neck up makes him a better player. But don’t take this as a insult because Chandler made it too a Super Bowl and made a couple probowls. He would have been more productive if not for always getting nicked up. But skill set wise these two players are dead on. Much closer comparision too Chandler than Peyton Manning…. that is all hype talk. And if your a real honest and objective watching film of him most will see this as pretty close comparision.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 3, 2012 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

thank you for contributing so much to my post

I almost made a post about the National Championship game, and how us who followed the draft got screwed (maybe I still will).

Screwed because we came so close to having Luck vs SEC defense, that I would have done a pay-per-view, and wouldn’t care if it was Luck Vs Alabama, or LSU. I believe how he performed in that game would be a strong predictor as to what kind of pro he will be.

Now he had a great game against Va Tech in last years bowl game, against a really good defense – good as a team – but not much pro-potential, not the athletes that Bama/LSU have.

Furthermore, seeing Blackmon go one-on-one with EITHER Morris Clayborn or Dre Kirkpatrick would have also been both a treat and enlightening; with my belief that Blackmon would have had about 5 catches for 75 yards and a TD – nowhere near what he and Weeden did against Stanford.

Had these two games been played, there would be some real doubt about Luck and Blackmon.

by durst on Feb 3, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Dude omg you are reading my mind
Had these two games been played, there would be some real doubt about Luck and Blackmon.

I wanted to see that play out. Mainly because i wanted to see Luck do well verse a really good defense. That way i could ease this feeling i have about him verse pressure.

Blackmon is good but i just have this feeling that this is Peter Warrick all over again. Now Blackmon has a better physical frame than Warrick but the point is he is playing with a mature quarterback. And timing and ball placement in the passing game can make a ok reciever look very good. I firmly believe that if Alshon Jeffery played with a really good quarterback he would be hands down the best none quarterback in this draft based on the on the field skill sets… all the top offenses in the NFL have physical match ups that you can’t match up with because of size…NOT because they are “oh so fast”. Detroit with Calvin Johnson… New Orleans with Graham… New England with Gronx… Green Bay with Finnely… Houston with Andre Johnson… Cinny with AJ Green…. These physical match ups elevate red zone opportunities…. open up match up issues verse back shoulder throws, jump balls, fades and any pattern that a reciever crosses a defenders face… .this size match ups dominate the NFL right now and there is NO defender on any roster that can match up with these defensive match ups. Which then require them to be doubled ..which then open up everyone else (hinse everyones concern about Rob Gronx for this Superbowl).. Blackmon is good but i just see a good reciever in a good system with a mature quarterback that can give him the ball placement to make plays on the college level….not taking anything away from him. But evaluators that down grade Jeffery because of production are making a mistake because of above mentioned dynamic… Now if they don’t like him because of work ethic or other issues i can get it. But if i am a GM i am going to veet that thoroughly before i down grade him… again if that aspect pans out in the interview process i think he is the best none quarterback offensive player in the draft.

Defined reasons for failure or success in the NFL

Lack of pocket skills as defined in prior posts

1. ignore bodies around you and staying on balance remaining composed and calm even in a quarterbacks body langage while all heck is breaking lose around you
2. step up in the pocket and slide in the pocket maintaining focus down field
3. feel the rush and NOT look at the rush
4. (bonus) have the ability to extend the play
5. (bonus) have the ability to make plays with your legs

These are failed to under achieving to good quarterbacks drafted in the first round since 2001 and what i saw as their issues or strenghts after the snap from the pocket. This is only referencing pocket skills NOT what happens after the ball leaves their hands. Note the more issues they have the more tendency to be a bust. Note the less issues they have the better they tend to pan out as players. Again this is my opinion but some may find alot of truth in this.

Quarterback / had issues with (using pocket skills matrix above) I don’t consider fails with # 4 or 5 to be that big of a deal.. but failures in 1 2 or 3 to be critcal and flatout no recovery from these weaknesses in order to be great.

numbers indicate areas of weakness

David Carr / 1 2 3 4 5
Joey Harrington / 1 3 4 5
Alex Smith / 1 3
Patrick Ramsey / 3 4 5
Carson Palmer / 3 4 5
Byron Leftwich / 3 4 5
Eli Manning /
Philip Rivers / 4 5
Ben Roethlisberger /
J.P. Losman / 1 3
Jason Campbell /
Micheal Vick / 1
Vince Young / 1 2 3
JaMarcus Russell / 1 2 3 4 5
Brady Quinn / 1 3
Matt Ryan / 3 4 5
Joe Flacco / 3
Matthew Stafford / 4 5
Mark Sanchez / 1 3 4
Josh Freeman / 3
Sam Bradford / 3 4
Tim Tebow / 2 3
Cam Newton /
Jake Locker / not enough snaps to evaluate
Blaine Gabbert / 1 2 3 4
Christian Ponder / 3

Again this is just pocket skills NOT any evaluation of reading a defense or projecting the football. This is a theme that i am seeing. And this is just me trying to express that.

This concerns me because i see Andrew Luck as grading with 1 3. Again this is just my best shot at expressing what i am seeing and why i put so much emphsis on pocket skills and what happens between the snap and before the ball is even thrown.

Griffin grades out as / 0 … some say he has happy feet because of that patty pat motion he does with his feet. But Peyton Manning does the samething so just seems like a mannerism more than a responds or a some type of sign of panic.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 3, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d say he’s average in the pocket, and take away his elite speed, he wouldn’t be here.

RG3 is good in the pocket because he meets every skill set needed to excel verse pressure. As i said in another post

ignore bodies around you and staying on balance remaining composed and calm even in a quarterbacks body langage while all heck is breaking lose around you
-step up in the pocket and slide in the pocket maintaining focus down field
-feel the rush and NOT look at the rush
(bonus) have the ability to extend the play
- (bonus) have the ability to make plays with your legs

You really can’t look at tape of Luck and come to the conclusion that he trumps RG3 in this department considering the facts. Griffin is under alot of pressure and is likely to see less pressure in the pros or at least the same pressure (because he is playing for Baylor)… Luck will almost see twice the amount of quarterback pressures or more (because he played behind a stellar offensive line)……….and beyond those facts just look at tape Luck has NOOOO one around him on most of his throws to wide open recievers… fact!!!! RG3 has had almost no time to pass while throw higher degree of difficulty passes yet posting better numbers….again Luck sacked 56 less times yet throws more interceptions …even tho he threw the ball 128 less times.

It’s fine we disagree, but don’t base your opinion of players on what people who don’t know what they are talking about are saying, read ALL the reports and actually do your own research and watch a lot of games, it will really help you understand a players pros and cons.

sir are you really kidding me? i don’t get my evaulations from a scouting report. I am looking at the games and each snap myself. I am not taking this praise that everyone lumps on Luck as fact. I am looking at skill sets and this is the NATURE of how i could even notice these glaring “facts”.

I am pretty much the last person to ever look at a scouting report and try to make that opinion my own. I have watched every snape of both of these players of the last 2 years. This is where i get my opinions ..not from someone else or from a scouting report. That is how all these people looked at Cam Newton and judged based on this repeated cliche grips against him… that is how people such as yourself can become prone to being programmed by the media to believe Luck is soooooo great. And i do believe he is very good. But he isn’t even remotely as good as they media hype machine projects him… just like Newton wasn’t even close to what the media said about him as a player.

Its all the same cliche repeated over and over and over and only certain fans fall for it because they don’t look for themselfs and believe what their eyes tell them.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

scouting reports are some elses opinion you now made your own. This is the ride called Andrew Luck a very good quarterback that is getting way over hyped.
Am I saying he’ll fail, no not at all, I’m just saying fans who buy into hype and just read what the occasional draft guru says rather than actually watching the film needs to zoom out, take a breath and put things in context. I think you tried to do that, instead you really made me more convinced he isn’t a top prospect.

The major points of emphsis that i present are not talked about. My major point is dealing with pressure. RG3 dealt with tons of pressure during his career in a offense that relied on his arm. Luck ran a run first offense that used his arm to keep the defense honest. Even in the bowl game he wasn’t the center of the offensive attack it was the running game. I am pointing out a hugh drop in production between these quarterback while they are pressured. Now i don’t have a snap by snap count and i am searching for that now. But i am guessing Lucks quarterback rating is very low while “preessured” while RG3’s is likely very high… but that is just from eyeballing it. Someone will have to check that if they can i am trying to verfiy that.

And that is something you don’t get from a guy who just reads a scouting report. That is one of my major grips with these debats. The lack of Andrew Lucks special skill sets vs pressure.. it can’t be ignored because it is the single definable difference between good quarterbacks and bad ones. Not what offense they ran in college or if they called plays at the line. I don’t see a quarterback historically that failed because “he didn’t know the plays” that is just flat out misinformation. Quarterback pressure is the defining deference between Joey Harrington, Alex Smith, and David Carr looking so great sitting pretty behind their lines in college and getting shell shocked because in the pros the defense is there once you get your back foot planted in your drop….not after you pat the ball 3 times.

For me it is all about quarterback pressure. Who ever handles it the best wins but before i go any further just for clarity lets look at both of these guys stats Lucks and Griffins.

Luck: Griffin
67.0 comp%, 67.1 comp%
9430 yards passing, 10366 yards passing
1064 passing attempts 1192 passing attempts
713 complete passes 800 complete passes
8.9YPA, 8.7ypa
82TD passes, 78 TD passing
22int, 17 int
Sacked 23 times, Sacked 79 times
163 rushes, 528 rushes
957 yards, 2254 yards rushing
5.9 yp rush 4.3ypc
7 rushing TD, 33 Rushing TD
89 total TD 111 totaly TD

I find it hard to believe that no only on film do you see a better quarterback in RG3 but with Stats. I find it hard to believe no one at least questions this more. How is it possible to get sacked 56 more times on and throw less interceptions…on 128 MORE ATTEMPTS!?!??!?!?!?! Does not compute

Anyway thinking objectively has lead me to question this entire Andrew Luck hype. It is interesting how people think RG3 is getting hyped when i really think that it is just the NFL draft process working. Teams not have time to look at this and i am betting alot of them are seeing these same trends i am.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 5:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha looking back at your past four comments

It’s funny to see the chain, it’s like “disagreement → discomfort → rejection → deflection.” This conversation isn’t even about Andrew Luck, and like I tweeted yesterday, I believe he’s overhyped as well, though he is a much better prospect, but not nearly at the level some fans are putting him at. Saying either player is the best since whomever is silly. Take away the stats and look at the players games (as many as possible, not just highlights) and listen to how their offenses worked. Stats prove Griffen was the better college QB this season, the main reason he won the Heisman, though Luck easily had the better career. I’m not saying Luck is a better college QB, but all these stats and things you are saying are just proving Griffin is a better college QB but aren’t getting you any closer to actually looking at NFL readiness.

Looks like we’ll agree to disagree

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Feb 2, 2012 9:23 AM EST up reply actions  

my point in that was too illistrate the responds to pressure

yet it appears no one wants to acknowledge this fact. Everyone wants to turn the head and look the other way and pretend that in the NFL he won’t face pressure. Everyone sees that he has struggled versue pressure… he just hasn’t had alot of it because the the run oriented offense he plays in and because he is playing behind one of the best offensive lines in college football this year and likely the past few years. Playing against weak defensive teams that don’t have the personel to rush the passer.. Luck in the SEC would be a totally different prospect. Good but not “OMG” great

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Pressure, this is laughable

Watch the games, please, it will clear things up a bit, don’t read the tiny bios or watch the highlight reels.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Feb 2, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

WHY do you repeat this over and over?
Watch the games, please, it will clear things up a bit, don’t read the tiny bios or watch the highlight reels.

Like i have repeated i have watched every snap of both of these quarterbacks over the last 2 seasons. AFTER i watched these snaps it lead me to look at the stats which confirmed what i am saying.

I didn’t look at one highlight and jump on it.. i did look up a few stats and jump on it. I took what i had already saw on game tape. Then looked at every snap of both players from the past 2 seasons THEN LOOKED at stats.

Point is my journy to this opinion was veeted through acturally looking at down and distance .. game situations.. teams they faced… type of throws… skills sets verse pressure.

(wasn’t able to find the Kansas tape of this year yet but still have a big enough sample)

It is very insulting to hear you try to diminish the effort i did put into looking at both quarterbacks even after i clearly state in serveral posts that it isn’t just looking at a few stats and a few highlights… this is the type of hyperbole that comes with talking about popular opinions. Many people will just say “nah your wrong just because”..

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Thought to possess the strongest arm in a relatively weak draft class, Flacco was drafted with the 18th pick.

He now has the strongest arm in the league…

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 2, 2012 9:46 AM EST reply actions  

Stafford and Cutler politely disagree.

"You've got to respect your opponent, no matter who it is. You respect him best by going out there and beating him up." - Calvin Johnson

by Mavyrk on Feb 2, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Would love to see a long throw competition. Joe can launch one 80 yards.

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 2, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I'm going Stafford in this competition

if we’re talkin facial hair though, Flacco is gonna put up a mean fight lol

by vitzeng on Feb 2, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Flacco would beat Stafford by 10 yards easy.

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 2, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I want to go Stafford as well because of the 5k yards he threw for

But the only thing is this is his 3rd year and avoiding injury is still part of the equation as unfair as it may seem. Another 4500 plus yard season playing all 16 games and this changes too Stafford in my opinion. Honestly feel Stafford could be better than Payton Manning because of Megatron.. he will help elevate Stafford alot.

I still think Cam Newton with a improved team around him could reach heights no one has seen before in the NFL. If he improves just a little bit .. stays healthy… gets a few weapons… their defense play atleast middle of the pack in terms of defensive rank and that kid could explode. Steve Smith is very good but Newton made him alot better this year after taking 2 years off lol. Now all of a sudden he is a top 4 reciever again? Give him a few more weapons or lord have mercy if he gets a dynamic physical mismatch like Megatron or Andre Johnson or Grahm or Gronz or Larry Fitz or Vincent Jackson or anything like that and it will be very tough to stop him with experience… could be better than all of these quarterbacks easy.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

We are talking about who has a stronger arm, not which QB would we want on our team.

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 2, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

ahh

in that case Stafford would be up there for me, kid has a gun

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

it is all a eye ball test both have good arms

Just see more zip on Staffords passes and accuracy. Good highlight though

by Shankdiddy on Feb 2, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I have seen numerous analysts say that Flacco throws the out pattern faster than anyone in the league.

But I agree, Flacco and Stafford have the strongest arms in the league most likely. Wouldn’t put it past Vick to be able to launch one 70+ either.

Would be great to see these guys do a deep bomb competition.

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 2, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

could use a Pro Bowl event on this

would make it a helluva lot more interesting

by vitzeng on Feb 3, 2012 1:59 AM EST up reply actions  

And you are so sure of this because….?

There are videos of Flacco throwing it 74 yards (which he considered a bad throw) when he was only in college. 4 years into his NFL career and about 20 lbs of muscle, he could hit 80 with ease in the right conditions (which I saw him do this year)

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 2, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

And...

Here’s (2:50) a video of him throwing it 50 yards, in a game situation, off his back foot, with ease. And it’s a perfect spiral. You may ask “why only 50 yards?” Well, to put it bluntly, not even Calvin Johnson’s that fast.

"You've got to respect your opponent, no matter who it is. You respect him best by going out there and beating him up." - Calvin Johnson

by Mavyrk on Feb 3, 2012 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

That was a hell of a pass. Here is another bomb from Joe where he can’t really get his feet set with a DL coming at him. (Throws from the 22 yard line, caught on the opposite 25 yard line)

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d812f2515/WK-3-Can-t-Miss-Play-Mason-72-yd-TD

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 3, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

and it means nothing

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Feb 2, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Never said it did.

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 3, 2012 9:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe, maybe not. It’s difficult to tell when the ball is flying so low to the ground not near his WR.

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
Follow me on Twitter

by John Stephens on Feb 3, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yea, I was pissed too when Torrey had to dive for “that catch”

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 3, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

QBs with a comp% similar to Joe: Grossman, McCoy, Sanchez, Painter, Skelton…

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
Follow me on Twitter

by John Stephens on Feb 3, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

What a freaking bum. Counting down the days until he is gone.

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 3, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope he stays!

"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
Follow me on Twitter

by John Stephens on Feb 3, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

oh you

"It’s time people started realizing just how good a player Carlos Dunlap already is, and that starts with the Bengals. They gave him a season-high 58 snaps and what was the result? Carnage on the right side of the Seattle line." -Pro Football Focus

by Doc Scratch on Feb 4, 2012 1:34 AM EST up reply actions  

sup

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 4, 2012 4:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Rodgers, Stafford and Cutler all disagree

Formerly known as Steeler_

BTSC's token Kiwi fan. That means I'm a New Zealander. Yes, that small country next to Australia....no we are not part of Australia

by Michael Hewitt on Feb 11, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

if the skins get rg3,

cant they trade players; not only draft picks?

by skinsfan42 on Feb 2, 2012 5:50 PM EST via Android app reply actions  

Yes, you can trade players. You couldn’t last season because of the lockout, but teams are allowed to this season. But their aren’t many players on the skins that teams will want that your front office are also willing to trade.

"Picture Me Rollin"

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 2, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

LL#30

by skinsfan42 on Feb 3, 2012 3:30 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

2nd best since Payton?

I would say that Carson Palmer was very highly touted. Probably the second best after Luck. Then I would probably put Vick at #4. And finally, RG3 at #5. Ironic, though, because if Bradford or Locker came out a year earlier, both would be in consideration as well for most pro-ready. As it was, Bradford was not a consensus #1 after his injury and Locker looked like a different player his senior year.

"He has lived up to the legendary billing... And the legend is born in Calvin Johnson!" -Wes Durham

by sportsfan4life2012 on Feb 3, 2012 2:52 PM EST reply actions  

that's what I was going to say

bradford pre-injury would have been up there

by ECURam87 on Feb 3, 2012 7:42 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

No way.

He’s not close to be the second best behind Manning.

Proud fan of Pittsburgh's professional sports teams and the Pirates too.

by Black&GoldTrain on Feb 4, 2012 2:10 AM EST reply actions  

I tried to read all the responses...

and found that 90% of them are from Shankdiddy…

then I stopped reading. I have difficulty with long-winded posts, claiming some self-perceived talent that no one else seems to know about.

Shank, you may have been right on, but to go on at length such as this, is rather troubling, IMO…

by jgibbsfan1 on Feb 4, 2012 10:27 AM EST reply actions  

durst, I enjoyed your presentation...

along with your research to back up your platform. I admit, I quit reading once I got to 2005, since I got the point. As a Skins fan, I am extremely hopeful we can get him…

by jgibbsfan1 on Feb 4, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

I am glad you enjoyed it, but in one sence only about 25 % of my post was about Robert Griffin (say what?)

I sorta consider myself a draft historian, and part of the fun writing this (and hopefully reading this) is looking back at all the QBs drafted in the first round.

As we looked back together, I reminded people as to why Tim Couch was picked number one, why Alex Smith was picked over Aaron Rodgers, why there were doubts about Eli, Roethlisberger, and McNabb, and eventually why I believe by April there may be less questions about Griffin than other prospects.

This was NOT meant as a prediction about Griffin’ NFL career…..I doubt Griffin will have as good a rookie year as Cam
I doubt Griffin will ever throw for 5,000 yards, like Stafford did. I doubt he will win as many superbowls as Roethlisberger.

by durst on Feb 5, 2012 8:27 AM EST up reply actions  

YUP there is truth in that. Way too long… but i do try my best to respond to a commenter and each aspect of what they are talking about…. too a fault

by Shankdiddy on Feb 4, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

while you're in the criticism-accepting mood

“too” is for “too much”; “to” is for “referring to” (as in “to a fault”). just noticed it a few times, and avoiding that mistake would make the argument cleaner.

I like what you have to say, and I have no problem with the length (thoroughness) of your comments.

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 7, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I have yet to use proper english

That isn’t a good thing to admit :(. But i will try harder i am just acting lazy.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 7, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I like the length of his posts.

Nothing wrong with a guy expanding on his thoughts. Makes for better discussion than “Well, you need to watch every snap instead of highlights, hah!”

I’ve had questions about Luck ever since I watched his two performances against Oregon and the game against USC in 2011. Always nice to see someone bring up something I didn’t know, like Luck eating more sacks than RG III behind that Standford O-Line.

by Gitaroo_Dude on Feb 4, 2012 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Always nice to see someone bring up something I didn’t know, like Luck eating more sacks than RG III behind that Standford O-Line

oh i am sorry i didn’t mean too present this in error. What i meant to display was that Luck was sacked only 23 times in his career. And RG3 was sacked 79 times in his career. The logic in talking about this was too build discuss the fact that Luck is under less pressure than RG3. And that RG3 threw the ball more. So with that being said you would think that if RG3 throws the ball 128 more times under tremendous pressure. How is it that he makes less mistakes? It was just food for thought on the concept that Luck is more advanced in the passing game. A guy tossing 6 int this year and onlly 8 last year in a pass happy offense that is attack oriented and under that much pressure you would think throws tripple the amount of interceptions… But instead Luck in a run first oriented offense with 2 NFL top 10 draft projected offensive linemen in front of him throws more interceptions. It is just food for thought on why these prospects are closer than many want to give credit for…. to me starting with how they deal with pressure. And that too me is the most critcal trait of a quarterback and RG3 trumps Luck in this regard… and it is more than just reflected in stats but on film as well.

But yea sorry if i presented that wrong

by Shankdiddy on Feb 5, 2012 2:35 AM EST reply actions  

"Best prospect" in this context should really mean "most hyped prospect"

Because when comparing Luck and RG3 to other QBs from the last 15 years, we don’t compare them to the best- the Brady’s, the Brees, or even the Rodgers of the NFL world. We compare them to other QBs who also had a lot of draft day hype- a list that includes guys like Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Blaine Gabbert and David Carr.

RG3 and Luck benefited from playing in great offenses. Stanford had the best O-line in college football, and maybe the best tight end group in football. Baylor had NFL talent on its offense outside of Griffin- including a guy some say is the “real” best WR in the draft in Wright and a likely round 1-3 RB in Ganaway.

RG3 had a phenomenal year. But if he entered the draft in 2011 instead, he would have likely been a late round pick. Lets not forget that he struggled with many aspects of his game for years before starting to put it together this year (he’s still got a lot to work on- especially his footwork). By contrast, Cam Newton walked onto Auburn as a lowly JuCo transfer and dominated immediately. Griffin was very good overall, but he did not dominate the way Newton did, and not even the way Vick did (if you are old enough to remember how amazing Vick was at VT). Newton is also much bigger, stronger, and all things considered, I’d even say he’s more athletic too, since he moves just as well in a bigger body.

Newton had some nebulous and undefined “character concerns…” but his mechanics and technique were actually pretty good, and this was as a first year starter… who dominated college football. Before 2011, RG3 was basically a clone of Darron Thomas, a solid but highly flawed college QB with bad mechanics and technique, and then he just put it together in his 4th year of starting. A year ago, any comparison of RG3 and Newton would have made people think you were crazy. To me, there is no comparison. Griffin might have a better NFL career for all I know, but he’s not even close to what Newton was coming out of college, and I think a lot of the draft community should seriously rethink their grades on Newton in retrospect. Carolina did their homework and made the right choice- and looking back, I think it was pretty obvious given how complete of a package of skills and talent he had. I say this as a Seahawks fan who doesn’t care one bit about the Panthers.

I like Griffin, and for a while I was really hoping my Seahawks would make a move for him (sounds like that’s not happening). But he’s now getting the same Teflon treatment Luck got all year long, where everyone is completely ignoring some pretty glaring flaws on RG3’s part, namely his throwing motion, footwork, the fact that he didn’t call his own plays and he has significant size/durability issues akin to Michael Vick (aka “that really great QB in Philly who never stays healthy”)… if not worse. Griffin is one of the better QBs of the last 15 years- I’d put him comfortably in the top 10. But he’s also maybe the most over hyped QB I’ve ever seen. Even more over-hyped than Luck. This topic convinced me.

by Kip Earlywine on Feb 5, 2012 7:09 AM EST reply actions  

several people have suggested that Griffin was "over-hypered", and that disappoints me...

Had I felt that way, I likely would not have done this post. LOL
I wanted to get this out, BEFORE the hype began. Although some are predicting a trade up (Washington, Cleveland), most are penciling in Griffin being drafted #4, #6 or even later.

Currently many are predicting Justin Blackmon will be drafted by the Rams with the second pick (dertainly fits team needs better than RG3) but this prompted me to make this post : http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2012/1/17/2713736/most-overrated-draft-prospect-justin-blackmon.

Sure Griffin had alot of hype as a Heisman trophy winner, but I have not seen much hype yet…..
After the combine and prodays, I expect ALOT more talk about him better than (fill-in the blank) and wanted you to see it here first.

by durst on Feb 5, 2012 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Sure Griffin had alot of hype as a Heisman trophy winner, but I have not seen much hype yet…..
After the combine and prodays, I expect ALOT more talk about him better than (fill-in the blank) and wanted you to see it here first

The thing that gets me is that the media and the fans have dominated this draft talk. The NFL of course doesn’t have much of a voice because GM’s and Teams are playing poker face.

What i see happening is that all this time NFL teams have been busy dealing with their seasons on a game to game basis. They didn’t want to turn focus toward the draft like the media and the fans can. It is very likely that NFL minds (people that think more rational) will continue to evaluate everyone and not go by this mind set of “wow luck sure is great”. Last time a team did that it really showed (Saints with Ricky Williams) The Colts could have selected Williams that year like everyone thought they would because of the Hype. But instead they drafted E. James because as they went through the draft process of evaluating they found him to be a better player and stayed honest with themselfs in this regard EVEN though Ricky Williams had serveral years of playing at a high level in college…. Colts seem basically are the example of what i have been saying all along. You have to evaulate skill sets honestly. And if you honestly look at some of the areas i have pointed too you should be concerned. I spoke in facts and kept as much subjective comments out of it as possible

by Shankdiddy on Feb 5, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

By contrast, Cam Newton walked onto Auburn as a lowly JuCo transfer and dominated immediately. Griffin was very good overall, but he did not dominate the way Newton did, and not even the way Vick did (if you are old enough to remember how amazing Vick was at VT)

uhmm vick passed for 16 TD in his career ..8 as a freshman and 8 as a sophmore… hardly dominate as a passer. RG3 has over 10K yards career passing and 78 TD passes.. 111TD totaly for his career. There is a major difference in production here.

There is a thought process that bothers me here. In any normal year seeing a quarterback go from good production to lights out production is a good sign. This shows that this quarterback hasn’t hit the wall and is growing. 22 TD and 8 interceptions isn’t bad at all. People act like he wasn’t even playing in 2010. But RG3 played pretty good that year for a sophmore. Stafford threw 26 TD and was picked number 1 his senior year… Blaine Gabbert would have loved to have RG3’s production in his last year he only had 16 TD lol. It is just odd too me how him going from pretty good to really good shows some type of issue… improving is a bad sign?

Luck seems like his ceiling is alot lower. I have a hard time believing that Luck will succeed in a pass oriented offense with no identity in the run game and a questionable defense, that he will do well. (not to meantion potiental of losing key weapons).. Griffin’s skill set leads me to believe he could carry a team with less talent. Luck seems like he needs the perfect set of players around him to do well.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 5, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

not only am I old enough to remember Vick, but I used to live near the Virginia Tech campus

like I said in the original post, he was held back by VT’s conservative “Beamer-Ball” offense, but RG3 is a much better passer now than Vick was then. Plus a reported 2 inch height advantage.

I admit, I was among those who doubted Cam. Obviously I see I was wrong ( I will target him with my first round pick in fantasy football next yr, but that is a different story) The talent was undeniable, for me it was the “one year wonder” (despite being undefeated on three different college teams) that I questioned. He was only a starter for one year (on a major college level), and there have been numerous studies that indicate a certain minimum college games started helps. (tell that to Matt Cassel fans) http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/john_lopez/07/08/qb.rule/index.html

But that is in the past, and unlike a real NFL GM/scout, I didn’t lose my job.

by durst on Feb 6, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Hard to define

When you are talking about prospects there is a lot of subjectivity. From what I have heard the consensus seems to be that David Carr was the most highly regarded of the bunch. Personally I loved Aaron Rodgers, Big Ben… and Jimmy Clausen (oops) over that time frame.

RGII is certainly very talented but gauging him as a “prospect” against other prospects is tough. I think he is most comparable to Cam Newton, though probably a little higher.

I would say Stafford was a little higher because he came from a Pro-Style offense. Bradford a little below because of the shoulder injury.
Matt Ryan about the same as RGIII.
And both Eli and David Carr firmly ahead of RGIII as a prospect.
Can’t remember well enough to judge Carson Palmer.

So RGIII is certainly among the best… but perhaps not quite in the top echelon of all QB prospects of the last decade.

by invisibulman on Feb 6, 2012 1:58 PM EST reply actions  

Thank you invisibulman

it is very important to keep a balanced perspective on this. This post is referencing what evaluators thought of them coming in. It is my opinion Luck is the most hyped but neither of these quarterbacks are ranked in the top 5 too me.

In my lone evaluation of Newton i found him to be the best prospect since Peyton Manning but of course i was laughed at….alot.

by Shankdiddy on Feb 7, 2012 1:51 AM EST up reply actions  

RG3>Luck

Book it Dano!!

I am not an Alex hater, I'm an Alex apologist hater. Now you know. -Mr Moses

by rlott#42 on Feb 11, 2012 3:53 PM EST reply actions  

I love it that RGIII is rising to parity with Andrew Luck.

It means that if one throws at the Combine, the other will have to.

This could be the most fun Combine in years.

"How can an idiot be a policeman? Answer me that!"
-Chief Inspector Dreyfus

by FreedomRide on Feb 11, 2012 8:15 PM EST reply actions  

In terms of consensus projections...

Guys like Vick, Bradford, Russell were in everybody’s top 2. Leinart, Eli, Carr, Palmer, Stafford were in everybody’s top 5. I’d put RG3 in the latter group. I think it’s jumping the gun to say RG3 is this elite prospect without red flags. If you’re going to knock Bradford for his durability because of a shoulder injury, RG3 should get the same red flag for his torn ACL.

Also, it’s very rare for a 6’2" QB to excel early on. Since 1990, Andy Dalton’s 2011 season might rank as the #1 season for a 6’2" or smaller QB in his first or second season. The smaller QBs who’ve found success (Brees, Warner, Garcia, Vick, Romo) have always done it years after they were drafted. Not saying RG3 can’t break that trend, but to me he’s far from a sure thing early on.

by YaoPau on Feb 13, 2012 2:31 AM EST reply actions  

In the end, "the trade" may prove more than anything I said that RGIII is the second best QB prospect since Peyton

Something happened for the first time in league history, apparently, in the trade of the second pick in the 2012 draft from the Rams to the Redskins for three first-rounders and a No. 2. (I say apparently because league PR people believe no draft choice has been traded for three first-round picks, and certainly not for three first-rounders and a second-round pick. But the league Sunday couldn’t say for sure, so I’ll say apparently it’s the first time a pick got traded for such a haul.)
(from MMQB Peter King)

by durst on Mar 12, 2012 9:17 AM EDT reply actions  


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